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Discuss Legal/warranty issue UK in the alt.autos.bmw forum at Car Dealer Forums; Hi, I have a 2006 Porsche 997C2S, which I have had from new. I have ...
  1. #1
    Sir Salman Rushdie
    Guest

    Default Legal/warranty issue UK

    Hi,

    I have a 2006 Porsche 997C2S, which I have had from new.

    I have heard a strange rattling noise within the drivers side door for the
    last couple of weeks.

    Taking the car to my dealer, they telephoned me to say that they had
    discovered that 2 spot-welds on a steel repair plate inside the door are
    weak and will need re-welding.

    The only problem is that I haven't been involved in an accident, let alone
    have a major bodywork repair.

    The only person to ever drive the car was me and the delivery drivers from
    the dealerships.

    Would anyone be able to advise me on a legal basis where I stand?

    If the damage was done prior to delivery to me, and I had known about it, I
    would never have paid full price for the car.

    Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. What if there are other
    undiscovered damage/repairs? can I insist on a warranty extension at their
    cost? or maybe a fully independent inspection?

    Can I expect a rebate on the purchase price, or should I instruct a lawyer
    to deal with this?

    Any help/advice would be much appreciated.

    BTW, I have no personal proof that I didn't cause the damage and have it
    repaired other than the fact that my insurance company will confirm that I
    have had no claims since the purchase of the car.

    TIA




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    › See More: Legal/warranty issue UK

  2. #2
    hsg@h-gee.co.uk
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK

    On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:57:58 +0100, "Sir Salman Rushdie"
    <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >I have a 2006 Porsche 997C2S, which I have had from new.
    >
    >I have heard a strange rattling noise within the drivers side door for the
    >last couple of weeks.
    >
    >Taking the car to my dealer, they telephoned me to say that they had
    >discovered that 2 spot-welds on a steel repair plate inside the door are
    >weak and will need re-welding.
    >
    >The only problem is that I haven't been involved in an accident, let alone
    >have a major bodywork repair.
    >
    >The only person to ever drive the car was me and the delivery drivers from
    >the dealerships.
    >
    >Would anyone be able to advise me on a legal basis where I stand?
    >
    >If the damage was done prior to delivery to me, and I had known about it, I
    >would never have paid full price for the car.
    >
    >Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. What if there are other
    >undiscovered damage/repairs? can I insist on a warranty extension at their
    >cost? or maybe a fully independent inspection?
    >
    >Can I expect a rebate on the purchase price, or should I instruct a lawyer
    >to deal with this?
    >
    >Any help/advice would be much appreciated.
    >
    >BTW, I have no personal proof that I didn't cause the damage and have it
    >repaired other than the fact that my insurance company will confirm that I
    >have had no claims since the purchase of the car.
    >
    >TIA
    >

    Wow! My fees are ten bottles of Jack Daniels delivered personally in Hawaii.

    However, until that day here are my views.

    I did you inspect the car as any normal retail customer would have done so -
    i.e. in a showroom?

    I mention RETAIL as opposed to a TRADE buyer so if you have any connections with
    the motor trade and/or have dealt or deal part time and the garage can prove
    this then you might be classed as a TRADER and no warranty. Its a legal get out.

    If the goods were damaged and it is obvious or were pointed out prior to the
    sale then the legal terms are - TOUGH SHIT.

    If it was ever reasonable for you to remove the door panel at any time then why
    didn't you notify sooner.

    To my mind if this is the first time you have had cause to tell the dealer (did
    you buy from this dealer?) that there was a problem inside the door and the
    dealer found a REPAIR - was it really a repair or maybe a production
    modification for the new gadget they introduced on this model???

    If they sold you the car and you can prove to a civil court that you never
    suffered damage and the vehicle was supplied in that condition you have a claim
    for a full refund as the goods were not as described - NEW - or if you accept
    the vehicle as is in a damaged condition compensation should be forthcoming in
    respect of lost value on re-sale.

    If you belong to the RAC/AA or know of a motoring legal service - perhaps your
    own insurance company if you have person loss claims insurance as they are
    insuring a car they considered as NEW when it isn't.

    Porsche will have document to show when the car was made and who shipped it and
    when it got to the dealer who again should have proof of what happened to it.

    Remember a dealer also carries insurance to cover accidents so a repair to the
    car would be covered and if a Porsche dealer they would have repaired it with
    new items so no problem. In some cases a manufacture date is stamped on the
    body panels a legal team can sort this out. Your trading standards office will
    also be interested as will the BBC, Auto Express, Autocar, ITV, Watchdog. Start
    banding these words about - Oh forgot Daily mirror, sun, New of the World ,
    times etc.

    Call Porsche to inspect the car and instruct a solicitor initially and serve an
    injunction to get the garage to supply all the information you need. and DO IT
    NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Hugh
    --

    Sir Hugh of Bognor

    The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

    Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

    Hugh Gundersen
    hsg@h-gee.co.uk
    Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

  3. #3
    Sir Salman Rushdie
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK

    Hugh,

    Many thanks for the speedy response. I'll answer your points in full and
    look forward to that visit to Hawaii!


    <hsg@h-gee.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:umsle31b6uetb7g3nb5e500caqil4prhhh@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:57:58 +0100, "Sir Salman Rushdie"
    > <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Hi,
    >>
    >>I have a 2006 Porsche 997C2S, which I have had from new.
    >>
    >>I have heard a strange rattling noise within the drivers side door for the
    >>last couple of weeks.
    >>
    >>Taking the car to my dealer, they telephoned me to say that they had
    >>discovered that 2 spot-welds on a steel repair plate inside the door are
    >>weak and will need re-welding.
    >>
    >>The only problem is that I haven't been involved in an accident, let alone
    >>have a major bodywork repair.
    >>
    >>The only person to ever drive the car was me and the delivery drivers from
    >>the dealerships.
    >>
    >>Would anyone be able to advise me on a legal basis where I stand?
    >>
    >>If the damage was done prior to delivery to me, and I had known about it,
    >>I
    >>would never have paid full price for the car.
    >>
    >>Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. What if there are other
    >>undiscovered damage/repairs? can I insist on a warranty extension at their
    >>cost? or maybe a fully independent inspection?
    >>
    >>Can I expect a rebate on the purchase price, or should I instruct a lawyer
    >>to deal with this?
    >>
    >>Any help/advice would be much appreciated.
    >>
    >>BTW, I have no personal proof that I didn't cause the damage and have it
    >>repaired other than the fact that my insurance company will confirm that I
    >>have had no claims since the purchase of the car.
    >>
    >>TIA
    >>

    > Wow! My fees are ten bottles of Jack Daniels delivered personally in
    > Hawaii.
    >
    > However, until that day here are my views.
    >
    > I did you inspect the car as any normal retail customer would have done
    > so -
    > i.e. in a showroom?


    Normal look at the car on pick-up. I have no connections to the motor trade.

    >
    > I mention RETAIL as opposed to a TRADE buyer so if you have any
    > connections with
    > the motor trade and/or have dealt or deal part time and the garage can
    > prove
    > this then you might be classed as a TRADER and no warranty. Its a legal
    > get out.
    >
    > If the goods were damaged and it is obvious or were pointed out prior to
    > the
    > sale then the legal terms are - TOUGH SHIT.


    There was nothing obvious at all. In fact this could have been done during a
    service visit and not at outset.

    >
    > If it was ever reasonable for you to remove the door panel at any time
    > then why
    > didn't you notify sooner.


    Never heard the noise before, and had no reason to remove the panel.
    >
    > To my mind if this is the first time you have had cause to tell the dealer
    > (did
    > you buy from this dealer?) that there was a problem inside the door and
    > the
    > dealer found a REPAIR - was it really a repair or maybe a production
    > modification for the new gadget they introduced on this model???


    I checked with the service manager (a good guy) who told me that off the
    record it is almost certainly a repair. He has sent pictures to the warranty
    department to get their view as well.

    I originally got the car from porsche Hatfield, but changed to West London
    because Hatfield gave me a crap service.

    >
    > If they sold you the car and you can prove to a civil court that you never
    > suffered damage and the vehicle was supplied in that condition you have a
    > claim
    > for a full refund as the goods were not as described - NEW - or if you
    > accept
    > the vehicle as is in a damaged condition compensation should be
    > forthcoming in
    > respect of lost value on re-sale.


    How do I prove that I *didn't* do the damage?. They could technically claim
    that I had the door repaired outside of Porsche's dealer network.
    >
    > If you belong to the RAC/AA or know of a motoring legal service - perhaps
    > your
    > own insurance company if you have person loss claims insurance as they are
    > insuring a car they considered as NEW when it isn't.


    I'll have a word with Tesco.

    >
    > Porsche will have document to show when the car was made and who shipped
    > it and
    > when it got to the dealer who again should have proof of what happened to
    > it.
    >
    > Remember a dealer also carries insurance to cover accidents so a repair to
    > the
    > car would be covered and if a Porsche dealer they would have repaired it
    > with
    > new items so no problem. In some cases a manufacture date is stamped on
    > the
    > body panels a legal team can sort this out. Your trading standards office
    > will
    > also be interested as will the BBC, Auto Express, Autocar, ITV, Watchdog.
    > Start
    > banding these words about - Oh forgot Daily mirror, sun, New of the World
    > ,
    > times etc.
    >
    > Call Porsche to inspect the car and instruct a solicitor initially and
    > serve an
    > injunction to get the garage to supply all the information you need. and
    > DO IT
    > NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Thanks again for all your help Hugh.
    >
    > Hugh
    > --
    >
    > Sir Hugh of Bognor
    >
    > The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.
    >
    > Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find
    > it!
    >
    > Hugh Gundersen
    > hsg@h-gee.co.uk
    > Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK
    >




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  4. #4
    John Carrier
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK

    The car has had a repair in the door panel, yet you purchased it new and
    you've never had a mishap?

    The car was purchase from an authorized Porsche dealer?

    If I understand correctly then, you got a car that somehow got seriously
    damaged, was repaired, and then sold as new. This isn't normal practice by
    any new car dealer, but there are unscrupulous brokers that will purchase
    dinged cars, throw a cosmetic repair at it, and sell as program car,
    demonstrator ... even as new.

    (Most major manufacturers do an extensive pre-delivery inspection and any
    minor cosmetic flaws are corrected. There's a threshold that requires that
    the damage be documented and the information provided to the purchaser ...
    at least in the US.)

    If you bought the car from an authorized dealer, I think Porsche GB would
    have a vested interest in insuring your satisfaction and provide a
    first-quality repair and warrantee extension.

    If not, there's a Latin phrase that's appropriate. Perhaps a lawyer can
    help.

    R / John



  5. #5
    Sir Salman Rushdie
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK


    "John Carrier" <jxc2@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:ys-dnX3YucXBm3bbnZ2dnUVZ_o6knZ2d@comcast.com...
    > The car has had a repair in the door panel, yet you purchased it new and
    > you've never had a mishap?
    >
    > The car was purchase from an authorized Porsche dealer?
    >
    > If I understand correctly then, you got a car that somehow got seriously
    > damaged, was repaired, and then sold as new. This isn't normal practice
    > by any new car dealer, but there are unscrupulous brokers that will
    > purchase dinged cars, throw a cosmetic repair at it, and sell as program
    > car, demonstrator ... even as new.


    The car was purchesed from a main dealer thaqt it actually owned by Porsche.
    I'm not sure if the damage was done pre-sale or during a service call.

    >
    > (Most major manufacturers do an extensive pre-delivery inspection and any
    > minor cosmetic flaws are corrected. There's a threshold that requires
    > that the damage be documented and the information provided to the
    > purchaser ... at least in the US.)
    >
    > If you bought the car from an authorized dealer, I think Porsche GB would
    > have a vested interest in insuring your satisfaction and provide a
    > first-quality repair and warrantee extension.
    >
    > If not, there's a Latin phrase that's appropriate. Perhaps a lawyer can
    > help.
    >
    > R / John


    I'll post the results of what Customer Services say next week and it will be
    interesting to see just how they react.

    >
    >
    >




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  6. #6
    RustY©
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK


    "Sir Salman Rushdie" <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote in
    message news:1189799656_5347@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a 2006 Porsche
    > Taking the car to my dealer, they telephoned me to say that they had
    > discovered that 2 spot-welds on a steel repair plate inside the door are
    > weak and will need re-welding.
    > Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks.


    You lucky bastard. They will fix your rattle free. In another two weeks
    you'd have to pay.



  7. #7
    Low Life #3
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK

    "Sir Salman Rushdie" <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote in
    message news:1189799656_5347@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
    :
    : Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks.

    if you bought the car new or used from a Porsche dealer then they'll repair
    it (should be no charge)

    while they have it, consider having a 103 point inspection done and purchase
    another year of warranty (costs 900 euros here in Germany)



  8. #8
    Sir Salman Rushdie
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK


    "Low Life #3" <holden_mcthynge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:fcgrp3$7p0$02$1@news.t-online.com...
    > "Sir Salman Rushdie" <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote
    > in
    > message news:1189799656_5347@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
    > :
    > : Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks.
    >
    > if you bought the car new or used from a Porsche dealer then they'll
    > repair
    > it (should be no charge)


    Why should I accept a repair?
    They have given me damaged goods as new.


    >
    > while they have it, consider having a 103 point inspection done and
    > purchase
    > another year of warranty (costs 900 euros here in Germany)
    >
    >
    >




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  9. #9
    hsg@h-gee.co.uk
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK

    On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:08:43 +0100, "Sir Salman Rushdie"
    <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote:

    >
    >"Low Life #3" <holden_mcthynge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >news:fcgrp3$7p0$02$1@news.t-online.com...
    >> "Sir Salman Rushdie" <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote
    >> in
    >> message news:1189799656_5347@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
    >> :
    >> : Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks.
    >>
    >> if you bought the car new or used from a Porsche dealer then they'll
    >> repair
    >> it (should be no charge)

    >
    >Why should I accept a repair?


    Because you have had the benefit of the use of the vehicle for 11 months or 2
    years or whatever and only now had a problem come to light. Monetary
    compensation might be the only addition you would get over and above a competent
    repair that should entail a NEW door if it was damaged when you took delivery.
    You might need an electron microscope to find out how many paint layers and the
    age and make of the paint and whether it was Porsche supplied (factory mix) or
    factor mixed.


    >They have given me damaged goods as new.


    See above. I feel for you but usually there is a "reasonable" clause for 100%
    refund and it usually amounts to what a reasonable person would expect and the
    courts make the reasonable assumption around 6 - 12 months for damaged goods.

    There is another escape route in that if you have previously accepted a repair
    then there has been a precedent set in that you have ACCEPTED faulty goods.


    One thing I will say to you - always have a BATNA

    Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement or in simple speak always go into a
    negotiation with a figure that you will accept and scream for the maximum but
    never drop below your BATNA. Another is - make your demand and shut up - DO NOT
    SAY ANYTHING - first to speak loses. NEVER give the enemy an excuse or a free
    answer that you suggest ALWAYS let them offer and you say YES or NO remember
    NEVER offer anything.


    >
    >
    >>
    >> while they have it, consider having a 103 point inspection done and
    >> purchase
    >> another year of warranty (costs 900 euros here in Germany)
    >>

    Sir Hugh of Bognor

    --
    I used to be an Egotistical Meglomaniac - but now I'm just perfect!

    Hugh Gundersen
    hsg@h-gee.co.uk

    Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK


  10. #10
    Low Life #3
    Guest

    Default Re: Legal/warranty issue UK

    "Sir Salman Rushdie" <tellingthetruth@wipingmyarsewiththekoran.com> wrote in
    message news:1189868766_5685@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
    :
    :
    : Why should I accept a repair?
    : They have given me damaged goods as new.

    if it's repaired good as new, what's the big deal? our 996 developed RMS
    leakage, and they fixed it, no problem. it's possible that the faulty
    weld/defect in the door took a while to manifest itself.



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