1993 Pontiac Grand Prix SE coupe. 115,000 miles. W-body, same as Lumina,
Regal and Cutlass.

The brakes perform pretty much the same now as when I bought it with 7000
miles in 1994. In normal driving they work fine. During a "panic stop" they
don't work well. There is not much more stopping power than normal driving.
The pedal will go to a hard stop and scare the crap out of me because I
think that I will hit the car in front of me. The wheels will not lock. When
the car was under warranty the dealer told me "That is the way the brakes
are on these cars."

I know that the brakes are not hot when this happens so it is not fading. I
pretty sure that it is not air in the lines because it was like this new and
I have flushed the brake fluid every several years using a pressure bleeder.
It is not leakage in the master cylinder because when holding the pedal, it
does not drop.

The front rotors need to be replaced. While working on this I want to try to
improve the problem that I described above. I've read about after market
parts that claim to help. I want to learn from your experience before I
spend a lot of money on parts that do not help.

Stainless Steel Brake Hoses: Hype or help?

Drilled and Slotted Rotors: Hype or help?

Any other suggestions?


Thanks

Usually ther rear brake system is a problem on these cars, the lower slider
pins rust up and freeze and at times the upper, this limits the clamping
action of the caliper resulting in little or no rear braking, check this
out.
"Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
news:icKdnZw-3ukQsPDVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@posted.palinacquisition.. .
> 1993 Pontiac Grand Prix SE coupe. 115,000 miles. W-body, same as Lumina,
> Regal and Cutlass.
>
> The brakes perform pretty much the same now as when I bought it with 7000
> miles in 1994. In normal driving they work fine. During a "panic stop"
> they
> don't work well. There is not much more stopping power than normal
> driving.
> The pedal will go to a hard stop and scare the crap out of me because I
> think that I will hit the car in front of me. The wheels will not lock.
> When
> the car was under warranty the dealer told me "That is the way the brakes
> are on these cars."
>
> I know that the brakes are not hot when this happens so it is not fading.
> I
> pretty sure that it is not air in the lines because it was like this new
> and
> I have flushed the brake fluid every several years using a pressure
> bleeder.
> It is not leakage in the master cylinder because when holding the pedal,
> it
> does not drop.
>
> The front rotors need to be replaced. While working on this I want to try
> to
> improve the problem that I described above. I've read about after market
> parts that claim to help. I want to learn from your experience before I
> spend a lot of money on parts that do not help.
>
> Stainless Steel Brake Hoses: Hype or help?
>
> Drilled and Slotted Rotors: Hype or help?
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>




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HLS, on the money!
"HLS" <nospam@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:cJdbk.14142$mh5.11826@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Shep" <djsljsrn@capital.net> wrote in message
> news:1215115064_11589@isp.n...
>> Usually ther rear brake system is a problem on these cars, the lower
>> slider pins rust up and freeze and at times the upper, this limits the
>> clamping action of the caliper resulting in little or no rear braking,
>> check this out.
>
>
> Exactly. Even though the rear brakes only supply 20 percent or so of the
> stopping
> power, if they are not working (and they often do NOT with this design
> system),
> it is hard to stop.
>
> I have rebuilt the front and rear calipers on these systems many times.
> Rebuild if
> cheaper, or buy new IF THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED.
>
> Assuming that this is the same system I am familiar with, the self
> adjuster system
> on these rear disc brakes (assuming this is the system you have) are
> terrible about freezing up, and the brakes will not adjust properly,
> leaving them worthless.
>
> If you use the parking brake every time you park, some of this problem can
> be
> eliminated.
>




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Thanks for the quick reply. This is what I found out. I loosened the caliper
bolts enough to grab the slider/spacer piece with pliers. They all rotated
freely.

HLS mentioned about using the parking brake for adjustment. I knew about
this and usually use the parking brake. To try to fix the problem, I set and
released the parking brake several dozen times but it made no difference.

With two lug nuts holding the rotor tight to the hub, I used a pry bar to
move the caliper out so that the inner pad was touching hard on the rotor. I
measured a gap of .036 on the drivers side and .025 on the passenger side
between the outer pad and rotor. Is this normal? The outer pad on the
passenger side has twice the wear as the other pads.



"Shep" <djsljsrn@capital.net> wrote in message
news:1215115064_11589@isp.n...
> Usually ther rear brake system is a problem on these cars, the lower
slider
> pins rust up and freeze and at times the upper, this limits the clamping
> action of the caliper resulting in little or no rear braking, check this
> out.
> "Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
> news:icKdnZw-3ukQsPDVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@posted.palinacquisition.. .
> > 1993 Pontiac Grand Prix SE coupe. 115,000 miles. W-body, same as Lumina,
> > Regal and Cutlass.
> >
> > The brakes perform pretty much the same now as when I bought it with
7000
> > miles in 1994. In normal driving they work fine. During a "panic stop"
> > they
> > don't work well. There is not much more stopping power than normal
> > driving.
> > The pedal will go to a hard stop and scare the crap out of me because I
> > think that I will hit the car in front of me. The wheels will not lock.
> > When
> > the car was under warranty the dealer told me "That is the way the
brakes
> > are on these cars."
> >
> > I know that the brakes are not hot when this happens so it is not
fading.
> > I
> > pretty sure that it is not air in the lines because it was like this new
> > and
> > I have flushed the brake fluid every several years using a pressure
> > bleeder.
> > It is not leakage in the master cylinder because when holding the pedal,
> > it
> > does not drop.
> >
> > The front rotors need to be replaced. While working on this I want to
try
> > to
> > improve the problem that I described above. I've read about after market
> > parts that claim to help. I want to learn from your experience before I
> > spend a lot of money on parts that do not help.
> >
> > Stainless Steel Brake Hoses: Hype or help?
> >
> > Drilled and Slotted Rotors: Hype or help?
> >
> > Any other suggestions?
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
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Newsgroups
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I should have mentioned that they are standard brakes without ABS. Disks
front and rear. They stop straight with no pulsating. And no, they will not
lock-up.

It feels like the master cylinder cannot displace enough volume of fluid to
lock the wheels.


"sdlomi2" <sdlSPAMomi2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JZhbk.26743$s77.14050@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>
> "Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
> news:icKdnZw-3ukQsPDVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@posted.palinacquisition.. .
> > 1993 Pontiac Grand Prix SE coupe. 115,000 miles. W-body, same as Lumina,
> > Regal and Cutlass.
> >
> > The brakes perform pretty much the same now as when I bought it with
7000
> > miles in 1994. In normal driving they work fine. During a "panic stop"
> > they
> > don't work well. There is not much more stopping power than normal
> > driving.
> > The pedal will go to a hard stop and scare the crap out of me because I
> > think that I will hit the car in front of me. The wheels will not lock.
> > When
> > the car was under warranty the dealer told me "That is the way the
brakes
> > are on these cars."
> >
> > I know that the brakes are not hot when this happens so it is not
fading.
> > I
> > pretty sure that it is not air in the lines because it was like this new
> > and
> > I have flushed the brake fluid every several years using a pressure
> > bleeder.
> > It is not leakage in the master cylinder because when holding the pedal,
> > it
> > does not drop.
> >
> > The front rotors need to be replaced. While working on this I want to
try
> > to
> > improve the problem that I described above. I've read about after market
> > parts that claim to help. I want to learn from your experience before I
> > spend a lot of money on parts that do not help.
> >
> > Stainless Steel Brake Hoses: Hype or help?
> >
> > Drilled and Slotted Rotors: Hype or help?
> >
> > Any other suggestions?
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> Assuming it has them, are you familiar w/the difference in feel
between
> standard and anti-lock brakes? The feeling when first making that change
> gives the impression of weak brakes. On a clean, dry road, with no
traffic,
> try a panic stop (AGAIN! in a controlled situation/traffic, et al!) from
> about 35 mph. Does it stop straight w/o dragging the tires or locking the
> wheels? Sounds as if this may be what you are 'feeling'? Another feel it
> will effect will be an almost pulsating or pushing back against your foot
on
> the brake pedal, as opposed to a cushioned stop against the pedal
force--to
> be distinguished from that out-of-true rotors doing their own pulsating.
> Difficult to describe, but the feel, altho' similar, is definitely
> different. HTH, s
>
>

HLS

Please see my response to Shep.


"HLS" <nospam@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:cJdbk.14142$mh5.11826@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Shep" <djsljsrn@capital.net> wrote in message
> news:1215115064_11589@isp.n...
> > Usually ther rear brake system is a problem on these cars, the lower
> > slider pins rust up and freeze and at times the upper, this limits the
> > clamping action of the caliper resulting in little or no rear braking,
> > check this out.
>
>
> Exactly. Even though the rear brakes only supply 20 percent or so of the
> stopping
> power, if they are not working (and they often do NOT with this design
> system),
> it is hard to stop.
>
> I have rebuilt the front and rear calipers on these systems many times.
> Rebuild if
> cheaper, or buy new IF THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED.
>
> Assuming that this is the same system I am familiar with, the self
adjuster
> system
> on these rear disc brakes (assuming this is the system you have) are
> terrible about freezing up, and the brakes will not adjust properly,
leaving
> them worthless.
>
> If you use the parking brake every time you park, some of this problem can
> be
> eliminated.
>

I don't think that it is the master cylinder because the pedal does not drop
when holding it down for a time. It does feel mushy as if there is air in
the system or something is expanding. Could there be air trapped that does
not get removed by bleeding?


"sdlomi2" <sdlSPAMomi2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tEjbk.26790$s77.22951@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>
> "Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
> news:YMSdnTq9nfvdIPDVnZ2dnUVZ_rvinZ2d@posted.palin acquisition...
> >I should have mentioned that they are standard brakes without ABS. Disks
> > front and rear. They stop straight with no pulsating. And no, they will
> > not
> > lock-up.
> >
> > It feels like the master cylinder cannot displace enough volume of fluid
> > to
> > lock the wheels.
> >
> Your car should have sufficient braking to drag the tires. Can be so
> many causes; but since they seem to have done this since 7000 miles: if it
> calls for metallics and someone happened to complain about noise at less
> than 7000 miles and someone put on non-metallics to relieve the noise,
they
> will NOT stop adequately.
> Were it mine, I'd go ahead and replace the rotors you said it needs.
> I'd choose a GOOD name-brand pad. I'd double-check and if it calls for
> semi-metallics or metallics, I'd be sure to use nothing but precisely
that.
> If pedal still goes against a hard stop and it still fails to stop
> adequately, I'd replace the m/c. It should not need drilled and slotted
> rotors or stainless hoses. *You can check if rears are stopping
adequately
> by applying emergency brake while rolling. If going much over 20-30 mph,
> they will probably--really should-- lock the wheels and drag the rear
tires.
> s
>
>

"Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
>
> HLS mentioned about using the parking brake for adjustment. I knew about
> this and usually use the parking brake. To try to fix the problem, I set
> and
> released the parking brake several dozen times but it made no difference.

Just to clear the air, you can set and release the parking brake hundreds of
times,
but if that adjuster is already frozen, you wont accomplish anything at all.

You have to manually free up those adjusters, if they are no longer working.

Can the adjusters be freed up with out disassembly of the caliper? Does the
..025-.026 gap under the pad indicate that they are not adjusting properly?

Thanks


"HLS" <nospam@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:svqbk.6418$LG4.1618@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
> >
> > HLS mentioned about using the parking brake for adjustment. I knew about
> > this and usually use the parking brake. To try to fix the problem, I set
> > and
> > released the parking brake several dozen times but it made no
difference.
>
> Just to clear the air, you can set and release the parking brake hundreds
of
> times,
> but if that adjuster is already frozen, you wont accomplish anything at
all.
>
> You have to manually free up those adjusters, if they are no longer
working.
>
>

"Commuter" <t120rv@pacifier.com> wrote in message
news:j9idnbIMgo2SPPPVnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@posted.palin acquisition...
> Can the adjusters be freed up with out disassembly of the caliper? Does
> the
> .025-.026 gap under the pad indicate that they are not adjusting properly?

You do not have to disassemble the rear calipers to free up the adjusters.
The gap of pad to rotor does not necessarily mean anything important.

You MUST free those adjusters, if they are not free already.

The adjusters can be found at the end of the parking brake cable.
You may have to spray these adjuster screws with aerosol lubricant,
and further you may have to remove the nut from the end of the adjuster
screw, and physically work the adjuster until it is capable of tightening
the piston against the rotor when the parking brake is actuated.

It is not the easiest thing in the world, conceptually, to understand how
these
brakes work. At least, it took me a few times to get the full impact of
what
is happening.