I'm having ongoing problems with my 2003 Subaru impreza TS wagon. Last
year with only 55000 km on it (about 33000 miles) I had the 1st and 2nd
gear synchros replaced because of grinding when I shifted into 1st
gear. Now, one year later I have grinding when shifting into 1st gear
again. It happens when I shift quickly into 1st while the car is
rolling very slowly (most recently it happened as I was rolling to a
stop at a toll booth window.)

I had the dealer look at it this morning and they told me that I
shouldn't shift into 1st gear while the car is moving at all because
"first gear has square cut gears and they won't mesh well". This
sounds to me like a lot of garbage since the gears are always
interlocked so the shape of them does not matter and the presence of a
blocker ring should allow the synchros to mesh properly.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? I have read about this
happening with the '02 WRX's but nothing so far with the '03 non-turbo
charged cars.

grantbilbrough@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm having ongoing problems with my 2003 Subaru impreza TS wagon. Last
> year with only 55000 km on it (about 33000 miles) I had the 1st and 2nd
> gear synchros replaced because of grinding when I shifted into 1st
> gear. Now, one year later I have grinding when shifting into 1st gear
> again. It happens when I shift quickly into 1st while the car is
> rolling very slowly (most recently it happened as I was rolling to a
> stop at a toll booth window.)
>
> I had the dealer look at it this morning and they told me that I
> shouldn't shift into 1st gear while the car is moving at all because
> "first gear has square cut gears and they won't mesh well". This
> sounds to me like a lot of garbage since the gears are always
> interlocked so the shape of them does not matter and the presence of a
> blocker ring should allow the synchros to mesh properly.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? I have read about this
> happening with the '02 WRX's but nothing so far with the '03 non-turbo
> charged cars.

Based on my experience ('99 Outback MT 127k miles) I recommend:

1. Press the clutch briskly all the way to the floor
2. Gently let the shifter find it's way in, don't force it.
3. Replace the stock gear oil with Redline.

Subaru MT's seem to be a little harsh going into
the bottom two gears and they don't like to be
forced. I've experienced some grinding occasionally
going into 1st and I doubt that it's abnormal.

It might be easier to change your expectations
and driving habits than to fix it.

BTW, I think the square-cut gears thing is silliness.
I think all MT gears are *straight-cut*, which is
probably what he meant to say. The tooth profile would
absolutely be involute rather than straight.

Thanks for the three tips. Here's what I have heard since my last
post:

According to the service manager at the dealership where I get service
Subaru of America says that the car must be at a complete stop and the
engine speed be below 1000 RPM before you shift into first gear.
Anything other than this and grinding is "acceptable."

Now if you ask me this sounds an aweful lot like finding a user
workaround for a design flaw. They put synchros and blocking rings
into transmissions so you don't have to do this nowadays! As one of my
engineer coworkers said, "it would be acceptable in the 1960's but not
now."

The service manager also said that I should talk to SoA to hear it from
them as well. He also said that if I climbed into any new car on the
lot it would grind. This runs completely counter to what one sales
person I talked to said. He said they drive the cars in the lot all of
the time in first and second gear and they never get grinding.

Of course, one big question that I have about my car is: if grinding in
normal then why did they do warranty work to replace my first and
second gear synchro last year???

A question to you Jim: Does Redline oil actually make a noticeable
difference that you have seen? I know that it is a performance
lubricant and I wonder if the original recommendations (not necessarily
yours) came from people that were looking for increased performance and
not to fix any particular problem.


> 1. Press the clutch briskly all the way to the floor
> 2. Gently let the shifter find it's way in, don't force it.
> 3. Replace the stock gear oil with Redline.

grantbilbrough@hotmail.com wrote:

> A question to you Jim: Does Redline oil actually make a noticeable
> difference that you have seen? I know that it is a performance
> lubricant and I wonder if the original recommendations (not necessarily
> yours) came from people that were looking for increased performance and
> not to fix any particular problem.

It helped, but it's not a cure. The transmission
will shift a little bit smoother. I started
using it because a friend of mine uses it in
his BMW M2 and it helped out there.

I had the same 1st gear issue in my 03 WRX, also a grind from 3-4 when
shifting under high loads. I changed to redline 75w/90ns and it got worse. I
drained some and mixed in some GM/Penzoil syncromesh and it has been perfect
for a few thousand miles now. No grind at all and downshifting to 1st when
rolling to a stop . Keep in mind ..Its not the proper weight oil to use in
the trans. I got this advice from my local WRX club. A few use this mix
without any issues .



"Jim Stewart" <jstewart@jkmicro.com> wrote in message
news:YLudnUA5JaNubXjZnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> grantbilbrough@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > A question to you Jim: Does Redline oil actually make a noticeable
> > difference that you have seen? I know that it is a performance
> > lubricant and I wonder if the original recommendations (not necessarily
> > yours) came from people that were looking for increased performance and
> > not to fix any particular problem.
>
> It helped, but it's not a cure. The transmission
> will shift a little bit smoother. I started
> using it because a friend of mine uses it in
> his BMW M2 and it helped out there.
>

grantbilbrough@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thanks for the three tips. Here's what I have heard since my last
> post:
>
> According to the service manager at the dealership where I get service
> Subaru of America says that the car must be at a complete stop and the
> engine speed be below 1000 RPM before you shift into first gear.
> Anything other than this and grinding is "acceptable."
>
The first gear is fairly tall in impreza. Maybe this is done because
some people tried to shift into the first while going 30 mph or
something?

> Now if you ask me this sounds an aweful lot like finding a user
> workaround for a design flaw. They put synchros and blocking rings
> into transmissions so you don't have to do this nowadays! As one of my
> engineer coworkers said, "it would be acceptable in the 1960's but not
> now."
>
Is he a _mechanical_ engineer?

> The service manager also said that I should talk to SoA to hear it from
> them as well. He also said that if I climbed into any new car on the
> lot it would grind. This runs completely counter to what one sales
> person I talked to said. He said they drive the cars in the lot all of
> the time in first and second gear and they never get grinding.

It's entirely possible that they never get grinding while THEY are
driving
because it never occurred to them to do what you are attempting to do.
I think you should ponder if your shifting habits could be changed.
>
> Of course, one big question that I have about my car is: if grinding in
> normal then why did they do warranty work to replace my first and
> second gear synchro last year???

This can be interpreted as another indication that something could be
done about the shifting habits.
While in second crawling 5+ mph to a red light I floor the go pedal and
start releasing the clutch. Is that a bad idea? It's so sloooooow,
I would like to hear alternative suggesting for a lauch from crawling
speeds.
Thanks!

> > Now if you ask me this sounds an aweful lot like finding a user
> > workaround for a design flaw. They put synchros and blocking rings
> > into transmissions so you don't have to do this nowadays! As one of my
> > engineer coworkers said, "it would be acceptable in the 1960's but not
> > now."
> >
> Is he a _mechanical_ engineer?

Yes, he is a mechanical engineer. His views were also echoed by one of
the technicians at my work that used to run a 10 bay car repair shop.
That same tech also races cars as a hobby so he is pretty in tune with
cars and how they _should_ work.

> It's entirely possible that they never get grinding while THEY are
> driving
> because it never occurred to them to do what you are attempting to do.
> I think you should ponder if your shifting habits could be changed.

I think that habit can be changed _most of the time_ but when rushed I
am certain that I am going to fall back on 20 years of driving with a
properly functioning synchro into 1st gear habit.

> While in second crawling 5+ mph to a red light I floor the go pedal and
> start releasing the clutch. Is that a bad idea? It's so sloooooow,
> I would like to hear alternative suggesting for a lauch from crawling
> speeds.

Maybe this is a question to ask Subaru... or perhaps the engineer that
designed their transmission!

With all of this that is going on I have to wonder if it is worth
buying another Subaru when I decide to get rid of this one. It all
makes me question their engineering capabilities on some level.

grantbilbrough@hotmail.com wrote:

> > While in second crawling 5+ mph to a red light I floor the go pedal and
> > start releasing the clutch. Is that a bad idea? It's so sloooooow,
> > I would like to hear alternative suggesting for a lauch from crawling
> > speeds.
>
> Maybe this is a question to ask Subaru... or perhaps the engineer that
> designed their transmission!
>
Would not have been as much of a problem if the engine did not take
forever to wind up.
Maybe they should go back to 2.2 or 1.8 liter if they can't make 2.5 a
joy to live with.
Maybe the engineer who designed the transmissions 15 years ago retired
and some clueless slacker replaced him? Plus the marketing folks on
top to tell him what gear ratios to select. All things combined: not so
good
of a car.

> With all of this that is going on I have to wonder if it is worth
> buying another Subaru when I decide to get rid of this one. It all
> makes me question their engineering capabilities on some level.

Well, they are a small-moderate volume manufacturer.
They probably sell as many imprezas including wrx and sti
as honda sells hybrid accords. The latter not being a big seller.
My problem is that I don't think the first gen legacy had all
the problems plaguing impreza today. And it's been 15 years or
so since legacy replaced loyale. So I'm not sure if Subaru
deserves much slack. All I'm asking for is to not get
their cars worse. I would not have been slamming a korean
manufacturer in the same way because what they had
15 years ago was pathetic and whatever they have now is
definitely an improvement. But for Subaru it's odd to see
issues with the basic features (tranny, chassis and engine) of the car.
I'd rather forego creature comforts like cruize control and
power windows/locks to have the basics ironed out.
I guess I was just spoiled by my protege (323 ouside the US).