Hi all,

Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
really taken-care-of, $4800.

So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
gaskets, and what-not.

I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
do a 12K-mile guarantee on).

So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
motor would be...

Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance...

aztek wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
> I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
> Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
> operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
> really taken-care-of, $4800.
>
> So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
> it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
> declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
> in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
> thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
> valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
> is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
> gaskets, and what-not.
>
> I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
> lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
> and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
> anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
> do a 12K-mile guarantee on).
>
> So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
> owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
> cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
> I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
> value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
> my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
> motor would be...
>
> Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance...
>

Did you get any CEL codes and if so, what were they?

www.ccrengines.com (whatever) might have some idea of cosy for a rebuilt
engine.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

On May 31, 5:40 pm, Carl 1 Lucky Texan <alcky...@swbell.not> wrote:
> aztek wrote:
> > Hi all,
>
> > Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
> > I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
> > Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
> > operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
> > really taken-care-of, $4800.
>
> > So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
> > it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
> > declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
> > in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
> > thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
> > valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
> > is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
> > gaskets, and what-not.
>
> > I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
> > lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
> > and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
> > anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
> > do a 12K-mile guarantee on).
>
> > So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
> > owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
> > cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
> > I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
> > value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
> > my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
> > motor would be...
>
> > Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
> > Thanks in advance...
>
> Did you get any CEL codes and if so, what were they?
>
> www.ccrengines.com(whatever) might have some idea of cosy for a rebuilt
> engine.
>
> Carl
>
> --
> to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

Mis-fire on cylinder 4

They gave me the mechanic's notes, which say:

"Verified CEL is on, also verified engine lacks power.
Pulled code: cyl 4 misfire (P0304)
Dropped Y-pipe and found cyl. #4 <something illegible> has dropped
causing a misfire
Recc. cylinder head replace
8 hours"

aztek wrote:
> On May 31, 5:40 pm, Carl 1 Lucky Texan <alcky...@swbell.not> wrote:
>
>>aztek wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>
>>>Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
>>>I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
>>>Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
>>>operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
>>>really taken-care-of, $4800.
>>
>>>So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
>>>it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
>>>declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
>>>in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
>>>thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
>>>valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
>>>is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
>>>gaskets, and what-not.
>>
>>>I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
>>>lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
>>>and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
>>>anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
>>>do a 12K-mile guarantee on).
>>
>>>So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
>>>owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
>>>cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
>>>I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
>>>value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
>>>my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
>>>motor would be...
>>
>>>Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
>>>Thanks in advance...
>>
>>Did you get any CEL codes and if so, what were they?
>>
>>www.ccrengines.com(whatever) might have some idea of cosy for a rebuilt
>>engine.
>>
>>Carl
>>
>>--
>>to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
>
>
> Mis-fire on cylinder 4
>
> They gave me the mechanic's notes, which say:
>
> "Verified CEL is on, also verified engine lacks power.
> Pulled code: cyl 4 misfire (P0304)
> Dropped Y-pipe and found cyl. #4 <something illegible> has dropped
> causing a misfire
> Recc. cylinder head replace
> 8 hours"
>

how odd. That leads me to actually believe your mechs more. I could see
a mechanical problem with a single cylinder yielding ONLT a misfire
code. I guess they COULD be reairing something simple and completely
fabricating everything else - but the sensible explanation is that it is
as they say. I was thinking along the lines "ah, this guy REALLY only
needs a front O2 sensore or a MAF at worst."

I suppose there is a likelihood of coolant 'weeping' on the other head
if that gasket wasn't replaced. Though the dealership probably installed
the Subaru additive, make sure it's on the paperwork. Wonder if they
elected to do the timing belt and any other parts in front?

Well, it seems like an odd failure and maybe you're good to go -
anyway, if the rest of the car IS very clean, maybe a rebuilt engine
could be an option. CCR is highly respected from what I read from
multiple sources - no direct connection or experience with them though.

just my $0.02

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very
common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone
determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would be
curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the valve
guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that can
be done to reach this expensive conclusion.

A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.

My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

johninKY wrote:

>Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very
>common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone
>determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would
be
>curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the
valve
>guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that
can
>be done to reach this expensive conclusion.

>A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.

>My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

Tend to agree, but could they have used some sort of minicam probe through
the port? My first guess would have been a broken spark plug, which often
achieves the same order of wreckage.Cheers

On Jun 1, 7:05 am, "johninKY" <gfl...@nospam.kih.net> wrote:
> Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very
> common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone
> determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would be
> curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the valve
> guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that can
> be done to reach this expensive conclusion.
>
> A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.
>
> My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

I always have that gut feeling, too - this is my 28th car... lots
of experience with the particular gut feeling in questions

So, would you think a "second opinion" examination of
the car would be in order ? I'm thinking of looking around
for someone qualified who will hopefully not charge me too
much... already paid $115 for the first diagnosis.

bigjim@backpacker.com wrote:
> Hey buddy,
> You bought an 8 year old car with ~150k miles. I usually keep a
> car for 8 years as that is when frequent repair bills start popping
> up. Do not be surprised if other items begin to fail. Used cars
> are just that- USED !!! By the time you pay for repairs over the next
> year or two you will have been able to buy a newer car!!! The $7800
> you paid for an 8 year old car doesnt sound so good now does it?
> Would have been a nice down payment on a new car with a worry free
> warranty!!!!
> P.S. newer cars dont rust as much as 60's and 70's so that is not a
> sign of anything. I had a totally rust free 86 Daytona. But it had
> cracked exhaust manifold, tranny was troubling, and electrical
> shorts. Looked good though. If you buy a used car buy one so cheap
> you wont care about putting money into it.
>

Gee that was a great help
Wanker


>
> On May 31, 4:11 pm, aztek <a...@charter.net> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
>> I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
>> Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
>> operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
>> really taken-care-of, $4800.
>>
>> So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
>> it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
>> declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
>> in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
>> thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
>> valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
>> is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
>> gaskets, and what-not.
>>
>> I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
>> lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
>> and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
>> anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
>> do a 12K-mile guarantee on).
>>
>> So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
>> owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
>> cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
>> I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
>> value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
>> my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
>> motor would be...
>>
>> Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
>> Thanks in advance...
>
>

I tend to disagree. I own four cars: 2001 Forester (bought new), 1998
Tercel (bought used), 1995 Protege (used), and 1994 Galant (used). The
Forester is by far the most reliable car I ever owned. The other older
cars have required various levels of maintenance and repair, but so far
I feel I come ahead as opposed to paying finance or lease monthly $$$. I
had a couple of VW's (Passat and Jetta) that were really high
maintenance. Even though I like them, I got rid of them due to high
running cost and aggravation. So far my Subaru, Toyota, Mazda, and
Mitsubishi stable serves me very well.
Best,
Ben

Bugalugs wrote:
> bigjim@backpacker.com wrote:
>> Hey buddy,
>> You bought an 8 year old car with ~150k miles. I usually keep a
>> car for 8 years as that is when frequent repair bills start popping
>> up. Do not be surprised if other items begin to fail. Used cars
>> are just that- USED !!! By the time you pay for repairs over the next
>> year or two you will have been able to buy a newer car!!! The $7800
>> you paid for an 8 year old car doesnt sound so good now does it?
>> Would have been a nice down payment on a new car with a worry free
>> warranty!!!!
>> P.S. newer cars dont rust as much as 60's and 70's so that is not a
>> sign of anything. I had a totally rust free 86 Daytona. But it had
>> cracked exhaust manifold, tranny was troubling, and electrical
>> shorts. Looked good though. If you buy a used car buy one so cheap
>> you wont care about putting money into it.
>>
>
> Gee that was a great help
> Wanker
>
>
>>
>> On May 31, 4:11 pm, aztek <a...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
>>> I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
>>> Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
>>> operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
>>> really taken-care-of, $4800.
>>>
>>> So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
>>> it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
>>> declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
>>> in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
>>> thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
>>> valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
>>> is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
>>> gaskets, and what-not.
>>>
>>> I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
>>> lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
>>> and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
>>> anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
>>> do a 12K-mile guarantee on).
>>>
>>> So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
>>> owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
>>> cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
>>> I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
>>> value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
>>> my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
>>> motor would be...
>>>
>>> Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
>>> Thanks in advance...
>>
>>

By dropping the y exhaust pipe, it might be possible to see whether the
guides have moved or not, but... I think they may be trying to take you
for a ride.

I would have the compression checked. If it reads ok, i would look for
a more mundane explanation, like spark plugs, wires, ignition coil, etc etc.

Good luck

aztek wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time.
> I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999
> Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything
> operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be
> really taken-care-of, $4800.
>
> So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then
> it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly
> declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it
> in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very
> thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped
> valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair
> is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts,
> gaskets, and what-not.
>
> I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems
> lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well
> and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee
> anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they
> do a 12K-mile guarantee on).
>
> So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru
> owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common
> cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am
> I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to-
> value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed
> my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new
> motor would be...
>
> Anyway, any insight would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance...
>