Toyota's green image is suddenly black-and-blue

Mark Rechtin
Automotive News
December 10, 2007 - 12:01 am ET

LOS ANGELES - For years, Toyota's environmental reputation has been
beyond reproach. But now it seems everyone from the Detroit 3 to the
Sierra Club is questioning the green credentials of the company that
gave America the Prius.

In fact, environmental activists are distancing themselves from
Toyota - especially since the company sided with General Motors, Ford
and Chrysler on the subject of how much and how fast to raise CAFE
standards.

And Toyota's bigger redesigns of the Tundra pickup and Sequoia and
Land Cruiser SUVs have not endeared the automaker to green advocates.

Is Toyota worried? Not so you could tell.

"We don't get caught up in the rhetoric," says Jim Lentz, president of
Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. "We have thick skin."

Environmentalists have begun piling on. The Natural Resources Defense
Council has launched a Web site titled "How Green Is Toyota?" The site
underlines what it calls the company's hypocrisy, calling out Toyota
for "trying to move America backward on fuel economy."

3-point message
Toyota's new corporate advertising campaign emphasizes these ideas.

1. Green vehicles

2. Local production

3. Social responsibility


Joining the club

In the past, Sierra Club leaders held Toyota up as an example of a car
company willing to exceed standards. But more recently it has called
the automaker's alignment with the Detroit 3 in this year's
congressional fuel economy debate "deeply disappointing."

Unlike Honda and Nissan, Toyota opposed legislation before Congress
that would boost fuel economy for all new vehicles to 35 mpg by 2020.

Meanwhile, Toyota's competitors, especially GM, have been pushing
their own green credentials hard - and tweaking Toyota along the way.

The Chevrolet Tahoe Two Mode Hybrid has nine decals and badges
proclaiming its hybrid status - including a strip of decals 3 inches
high running along the sides of the hulking SUV.

At the recent Los Angeles auto show, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz told
reporters that the Two Mode Tahoe gets the same fuel economy in city
driving - 21 mpg - as the four-cylinder Toyota Camry.

An advertising campaign will tout GM's environmental steps, in an
attempt to close the automaker's green perception gap with Toyota. GM
also is continuing its drumbeat about the Chevrolet Volt hybrid, which
is expected to start production in 2010.

And GM is boasting that the publication Green Car Journal named the
Tahoe Two Mode Hybrid its "Green Car of the Year" at the Los Angeles
auto show. The automaker neglected to mention that no Toyota vehicles
were eligible this year because they had won the award in the past.

Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Ore.,
said GM's tactics are smart.

"Hybrids are a revenue godsend," Spinella says. "They raise the
average MSRP, raise the average transaction price, can potentially
raise or at least add profits. Everyone wants a lick from this
particular frog."

But Toyota isn't panicking. The U.S. umbrella company, Toyota Motor
North America, recently launched its own green advertising as part of
a larger corporate image campaign touting the company's environmental
stewardship, social responsibility and U.S. economic impact.

But the green portion of the campaign has been in the works for seven
months and is not a reaction to recent changes in the political winds,
a Toyota spokesman said.

Lentz says neither Toyota nor Lexus plans a hybrid marketing push to
boost sales.

Still short of Priuses

"Our hybrid intention numbers continue to rise," he says. "We still
can't build enough Priuses. We're at 16 days' supply, but we'll be
back into single digits by month's end."

Environmental magazines such as Plenty still gush over the Prius. And
the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy listed four
Toyotas in its top 10 "greenest" vehicles.

Bill Reinert, Toyota's resident alternative- fuels guru, said the
company will not trumpet future technological developments before they
are ready for the public. He compares Toyota's restraint to GM's
active hyping of the Volt hybrid.

"In 1997, no one had ever heard of a hybrid, even though Toyota had
been working on it secretly since 1992," Reinert said. "We didn't say
anything. We didn't show clay models. We just did it.

"You can't let competitive PR pressure affect your own long-term plans
because then you become reactionary rather than progressive."

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:475d2e90$1@kcnews01...
> Toyota's green image is suddenly black-and-blue
>
> Mark Rechtin
> Automotive News
> December 10, 2007 - 12:01 am ET

[chop]

> Meanwhile, Toyota's competitors, especially GM, have been pushing their
> own green credentials hard - and tweaking Toyota along the way.
>
> The Chevrolet Tahoe Two Mode Hybrid has nine decals and badges proclaiming
> its hybrid status - including a strip of decals 3 inches high running
> along the sides of the hulking SUV.
>

You know, it's funny... one of the things that causes people to get all
wrought up about the Prius is the "lookitme" greenness of it - because it's
a unique shape. However, this shape gives the Prius a real practical
advantage; a Cx far lower than most other cars.

And GM is going at the "lookitme" aspect of the hybrid with badging and
decals. But a trucklike Cx. It is to laugh.

[snip]
> And GM is boasting that the publication Green Car Journal named the Tahoe
> Two Mode Hybrid its "Green Car of the Year" at the Los Angeles auto show.
> The automaker neglected to mention that no Toyota vehicles were eligible
> this year because they had won the award in the past.

[snicker]

> Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Ore., said
> GM's tactics are smart.
>
> "Hybrids are a revenue godsend," Spinella says. "They raise the average
> MSRP, raise the average transaction price, can potentially raise or at
> least add profits. Everyone wants a lick from this particular frog."

Isn't CNW the group that proved a Prius had a higher energy cost than a
Hummer, in part because they assumed the life of a Prius was only 100K miles
and the life of a Hummer was 300K miles? Not to mention a few other
assumptions that also stacked the deck.

Why is CNW the "Automotive News" go-to talking head for this sort of thing?

> Still short of Priuses
>
> "Our hybrid intention numbers continue to rise," he says. "We still can't
> build enough Priuses. We're at 16 days' supply, but we'll be back into
> single digits by month's end."

It seems the market has a voice. I wonder how many Yukaburbahoe hybrids GM
will sell in the next 12 months, as Toyota sells 300K or so Priuses and a
lesser number of Camry hybrids and Highlander hybrids?


And, lest we forget, any "green" attached to GM comes from their aggressive
hype of e-85 capability, which boosts their federal fuel economy numbers
ridiculously, in spite of the fact that few Yukaburbahoes will ever find
their was to an e-85 pump. Never mind the questionable enhancement to our
energy use profile from current ethanol production and let's just walk right
on by what e-85 is doing to food prices.

Well, I'm being slightly unfair to the General. They do have a set of mild
hybrids on the market which can, under the right circumstances, reduce fuel
consumption... a bit. I was going to say "significantly" but that's really
not proven. With some adjustment, they could probably do better. However,
the market seems to be ignoring them altogether, so it hardly matters.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:16:48 -0500, C. E. White wrote:

> LOS ANGELES - For years, Toyota's environmental reputation has been beyond
> reproach. But now it seems everyone from the Detroit 3 to the Sierra Club


Yeah, I'm going to listen to these sources gripe about Toyota. The Big 3
have egg on their face from getting their @$$e$ kicked by a Jap upstart,
and the Sierra Club? Didn't they want women to have abortions after having
one child? Bunch of friggin' k00ks...

> In the past, Sierra Club leaders held Toyota up as an example of a car
> company willing to exceed standards. But more recently it has called
> the automaker's alignment with the Detroit 3 in this year's
> congressional fuel economy debate "deeply disappointing."

Personally, I am not affected at all if Toyota opposes the fuel
economy debate. Its only normal that they give their stand. Its a
business after all, and if other car manufacturers can make "greener"
cars then its the consumers who win.

> Unlike Honda and Nissan, Toyota opposed legislation before Congress
> that would boost fuel economy for all new vehicles to 35 mpg by 2020.
>
There aren't very bright people in Congress =). On how and why they
came up with the 35 mpg magic number beats me. What congress should do
is ithink of ways on how to reduce hybrids car costs for the average
consumer.

dh wrote:
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news4b7j.5751$581.5102@trnddc04...
>> dh wrote:
>>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
>>> news:475d2e90$1@kcnews01...
>>>> Toyota's green image is suddenly black-and-blue
>>>>
>>>> Mark Rechtin
>>>> Automotive News
>>>> December 10, 2007 - 12:01 am ET
>>> [chop]
>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, Toyota's competitors, especially GM, have been pushing their
>>>> own green credentials hard - and tweaking Toyota along the way.
>>>>
>>>> The Chevrolet Tahoe Two Mode Hybrid has nine decals and badges
>>>> proclaiming its hybrid status - including a strip of decals 3 inches
>>>> high running along the sides of the hulking SUV.
>>>>
>>> You know, it's funny... one of the things that causes people to get all
>>> wrought up about the Prius is the "lookitme" greenness of it - because
>>> it's a unique shape. However, this shape gives the Prius a real
>>> practical advantage; a Cx far lower than most other cars.
>>>
>>> And GM is going at the "lookitme" aspect of the hybrid with badging and
>>> decals. But a trucklike Cx. It is to laugh.
>> Yet, if one goes from the regular Tahoe to the Hybrid Tahoe, one is going
>> to save as much fuel as going from a Corolla to a Prius.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Having what to do with pointless in-your-face greenwashing vs a unique
> signature that confers a significant practical advantage?

The practical advantage is the same with both a Prius and a hybrid Tahoe
- both save the same amount of fuel for people who need the vehicle.
Whether the vehicle is one that many people need is another question.
However, the vehicle uses about the same amount of fuel as an Uplander
or Toyota van (whether the van or hybrid Tahoe would get better mileage
depends on how and where it is driven).

> However, if we follow your "logic," if one goes from a regular Yukaburbahoe
> to a Corolla, one would save a shitload of gas AND money. If one goes from
> a Yuhaburbahoe to a Prius, one will save money and a shitload of gas.

Yet, the Prius is not suitable for all people. I believe more people and
luggage will fit in a Tahoe than a Prius. And if one is towing a
trailer, the Tahoe is probably better suited.

I save even more gas than this most days: I take the train to the big city.

> The Prius is a little bit more money than a Corolla - for a nicer and
> larger car. The Yukaburbahoe hybrid is $14K more than a regular one for an
> extra two MPG. I somehow doubt that "green" is a big selling point in that
> market and I don't think GM is going to sell many of these.

21 MPG - 14 MPG = 7 MPG city. So it is more than just 2 MPG. Obviously,
savings depend on how and where it is driven. The highway savings are less.

Jeff

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:z3m7j.5837$581.30@trnddc04...
> dh wrote:
>> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news4b7j.5751$581.5102@trnddc04...
>>> dh wrote:
>>>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:475d2e90$1@kcnews01...
>>>>> Toyota's green image is suddenly black-and-blue
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Rechtin
>>>>> Automotive News
>>>>> December 10, 2007 - 12:01 am ET
>>>> [chop]
>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, Toyota's competitors, especially GM, have been pushing
>>>>> their own green credentials hard - and tweaking Toyota along the way.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Chevrolet Tahoe Two Mode Hybrid has nine decals and badges
>>>>> proclaiming its hybrid status - including a strip of decals 3 inches
>>>>> high running along the sides of the hulking SUV.
>>>>>
>>>> You know, it's funny... one of the things that causes people to get all
>>>> wrought up about the Prius is the "lookitme" greenness of it - because
>>>> it's a unique shape. However, this shape gives the Prius a real
>>>> practical advantage; a Cx far lower than most other cars.
>>>>
>>>> And GM is going at the "lookitme" aspect of the hybrid with badging and
>>>> decals. But a trucklike Cx. It is to laugh.
>>> Yet, if one goes from the regular Tahoe to the Hybrid Tahoe, one is
>>> going to save as much fuel as going from a Corolla to a Prius.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> Having what to do with pointless in-your-face greenwashing vs a unique
>> signature that confers a significant practical advantage?
>
> The practical advantage is the same with both a Prius and a hybrid Tahoe -
> both save the same amount of fuel for people who need the vehicle. Whether
> the vehicle is one that many people need is another question. However, the
> vehicle uses about the same amount of fuel as an Uplander or Toyota van
> (whether the van or hybrid Tahoe would get better mileage depends on how
> and where it is driven).

There's a practical advantage to 9 decals that scream "Hybrid?" Enlighten
me. I know what the practical advantage is of a low-drag shape.

>> However, if we follow your "logic," if one goes from a regular
>> Yukaburbahoe to a Corolla, one would save a shitload of gas AND money.
>> If one goes from a Yuhaburbahoe to a Prius, one will save money and a
>> shitload of gas.
>
> Yet, the Prius is not suitable for all people. I believe more people and
> luggage will fit in a Tahoe than a Prius. And if one is towing a trailer,
> the Tahoe is probably better suited.

Oddly enough, I didn't spot a single Yukaburbahoe towing anything today.
And I don't recall seeing any that carried more than a driver, either.

> I save even more gas than this most days: I take the train to the big
> city.

I saved even more energy. I bought a house close to the office. So close
that I frequently walk or bike.

>> The Prius is a little bit more money than a Corolla - for a nicer and
>> larger car. The Yukaburbahoe hybrid is $14K more than a regular one for
>> an extra two MPG. I somehow doubt that "green" is a big selling point in
>> that market and I don't think GM is going to sell many of these.
>
> 21 MPG - 14 MPG = 7 MPG city. So it is more than just 2 MPG.

I'll believe it when I see it. Reminder: No one has bought any of these
yet. Toyota has had hybrids on the street for a decade.

> Obviously, savings depend on how and where it is driven. The highway
> savings are less.
>
> Jeff

dh wrote:
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:z3m7j.5837$581.30@trnddc04...
>> dh wrote:
>>> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news4b7j.5751$581.5102@trnddc04...
>>>> dh wrote:
>>>>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:475d2e90$1@kcnews01...
>>>>>> Toyota's green image is suddenly black-and-blue
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Rechtin
>>>>>> Automotive News
>>>>>> December 10, 2007 - 12:01 am ET
>>>>> [chop]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Meanwhile, Toyota's competitors, especially GM, have been pushing
>>>>>> their own green credentials hard - and tweaking Toyota along the way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Chevrolet Tahoe Two Mode Hybrid has nine decals and badges
>>>>>> proclaiming its hybrid status - including a strip of decals 3 inches
>>>>>> high running along the sides of the hulking SUV.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You know, it's funny... one of the things that causes people to get all
>>>>> wrought up about the Prius is the "lookitme" greenness of it - because
>>>>> it's a unique shape. However, this shape gives the Prius a real
>>>>> practical advantage; a Cx far lower than most other cars.
>>>>>
>>>>> And GM is going at the "lookitme" aspect of the hybrid with badging and
>>>>> decals. But a trucklike Cx. It is to laugh.
>>>> Yet, if one goes from the regular Tahoe to the Hybrid Tahoe, one is
>>>> going to save as much fuel as going from a Corolla to a Prius.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>> Having what to do with pointless in-your-face greenwashing vs a unique
>>> signature that confers a significant practical advantage?
>> The practical advantage is the same with both a Prius and a hybrid Tahoe -
>> both save the same amount of fuel for people who need the vehicle. Whether
>> the vehicle is one that many people need is another question. However, the
>> vehicle uses about the same amount of fuel as an Uplander or Toyota van
>> (whether the van or hybrid Tahoe would get better mileage depends on how
>> and where it is driven).
>
> There's a practical advantage to 9 decals that scream "Hybrid?" Enlighten
> me. I know what the practical advantage is of a low-drag shape.

No, there is a practical advantage to having one, like the cargo and
people capacity vs. a Prius.

>>> However, if we follow your "logic," if one goes from a regular
>>> Yukaburbahoe to a Corolla, one would save a shitload of gas AND money.
>>> If one goes from a Yuhaburbahoe to a Prius, one will save money and a
>>> shitload of gas.
>> Yet, the Prius is not suitable for all people. I believe more people and
>> luggage will fit in a Tahoe than a Prius. And if one is towing a trailer,
>> the Tahoe is probably better suited.
>
> Oddly enough, I didn't spot a single Yukaburbahoe towing anything today.
> And I don't recall seeing any that carried more than a driver, either.

Yet, I have seen them towing things and with more than one passenger.

I didn't say that there are a lot of people who actually need these
vehicles. Only that there are some. Nor did I say most users of these
vehicles need them.

>> I save even more gas than this most days: I take the train to the big
>> city.
>
> I saved even more energy. I bought a house close to the office. So close
> that I frequently walk or bike.

I couldn't afford to live in the big city. But I do work from home on my
computer some days.

>>> The Prius is a little bit more money than a Corolla - for a nicer and
>>> larger car. The Yukaburbahoe hybrid is $14K more than a regular one for
>>> an extra two MPG. I somehow doubt that "green" is a big selling point in
>>> that market and I don't think GM is going to sell many of these.
>> 21 MPG - 14 MPG = 7 MPG city. So it is more than just 2 MPG.
>
> I'll believe it when I see it. Reminder: No one has bought any of these
> yet. Toyota has had hybrids on the street for a decade.

I can't even find teh Ukaburahoe on the web. I do find the Tahoe,
though. The EPA has tested them, though.

Jeff

>> Obviously, savings depend on how and where it is driven. The highway
>> savings are less.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>