1. Building a big fence isn't going to stop illegal immigration, any more
than the Berlin Wall stopped people from fleeing to the West. As long as
there is opportunity and money on OUR side of the border, and much less
opportunity on THEIR side of the border, they're going to come, just like
they found ways over, under, and through the Berlin Wall.

2. Enforcing the law is going to be spotty at best and won't solve the
problem.

3. Enacting still more laws isn't going to fix the problem if we aren't
enforcing existing laws now.

4. We had a program that worked prior to Lyndon Johnson, it was called the
Bracero program. People from Mexico could come up, work during the
agricultural season and go home. LBJ basically said, if they went home,
they couldn't come back. This was the beginning of our 'illegal
immegration' problem. Just as stupid as putting up the Berlin Wall.

Now, in light of history both here and in Eastern Germany, what solution do
you think will actually fix the problem? You can't obviously punish every
employer that hires 'illegal immegrants' We'd need a Federal Pennitentiary
the size of New York State. We need to understand that for the same reasons
our ancestors came here, so do they, for the most part. As long as Mexico
refuses to work with us to provide more opportunity on their side of the
border so their citizens see at least as much opportunity on their side as
ours, the border could be solid concrete a mile thick and 100 miles high and
it wouldn't fix the problem.

Why don't we raise the quota? Why is it so artificially low in the first
place? Just because we don't want no dirty unwashed Mexicans up here?
(Shades of Jim Crow.) Whether or not we allow 10 millions to immigrate,
they will come anyway as long as there are better opportunities for them
here than the pocket lint earnings they can make in a large part of Mexico.
Keeping the quota down is about as useful as bailing the Titanic with a
teaspoon.

Many of them want to do as our forefathers have done, grab a chunk of the
American Dream. Most of our ancestors eventually got a chance to walk
proudly. Tis true, it took a lot longer in some cases that it should have,
and we still haven't quite got to Martin Luther King's dream of basing our
judgement of others on the content of their character instead of the color
of their skin.

We should move toward making them legal in some way that rewards them for
legally entering the United States and working through the system. Learning
to speak English and become a part of the mainstream. Today I know a lot of
legal immigrants that are doing and have done just that. We need to think
this out, instead of punishing people because more of them are here than we
would necessarily like.

We also tend to forget a lot of our ancestors prior to Ellis Island
basically just got here. There were no quotas and until after the Civil
War, few restrictions. My French Canadian ancestors just crossed the St
Claire River. They had no 'papers' and nobody probably even cared that
they crossed. Many of them lived quiet lives in their little villages among
others of their kind, farmed their lands and lived their lives pretty much
as they had done in the old country. I am not even sure if my
great-great-grandfather, despite living here 47 years, ever actually
forswore his Canadian citizenship and acutally became an American. Where
they lived was the important thing.

And that dirty, unwashed thing. Seems to me I remember hearing about
various other groups over the centuries being 'dirty' and 'unwashed'. I
seem to remember in my childhood hearing some still talking about Italians
and Poles that way down in my old neighborhood. I have my sneaking
suspicions there was a time the Irish and the Germans were also considered
nasty old foreigners.

We've been trying to 'patch' this problem since Reagan. We need to sit
back, have a real discussion, and come up with a workable solution, not just
a bunch of buzzwords from the Left or the Right.

Right now, people are profiting from the misery of 'illegal' immegrants that
can't take better jobs or improve themselves. They're basically trapped.
If they were 'legal', they could work up the job chain like we did. They
would have an incentive to learn Engli$h. and improve their lot much as the
legal immigrants do. I suspect it would also have effects on certain
types of crime.

We can't grant them all mass amnesty. We've already tried that, and the
problem just keeps growing. We need to look at this picture in an entirely
new way. Tell the politicians to keep their buzzwords out. Lets decide
what will really work, because what we've got now ISN'T working, nor are any
of the various proposals on the table. Most of them make about as much
sense as trying to piss upstream against Niagra Falls.

What really saddens me is that 100 years after Theodore Roosevelt, many of
the Central and South American countries are still pretty badly off compared
to the US and Canada. I suspect if there were better opportunities south of
the Border, 'illegal' immigration would be much less of an issue. But then
again, untill WW2, outside of the large cities, the South was probably
closer to a third-world country here. I've seen some of the places and
heard some of the stories.

Charles the Curmudgeon.

In message news:c4udnatiStDFlsPanZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@comcast.com, n5hsr sprach
forth the following:

> 2. Enforcing the law is going to be spotty at best and won't solve the
> problem.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico
By John Dillin

WASHINGTON – George W. Bush isn't the first Republican president to face a
full-blown immigration crisis on the US-Mexican border.

Fifty-three years ago, when newly elected Dwight Eisenhower moved into the
White House, America's southern frontier was as porous as a spaghetti
sieve. As many as 3 million illegal migrants had walked and waded northward
over a period of several years for jobs in California, Arizona, Texas, and
points beyond.

President Eisenhower cut off this illegal traffic. He did it quickly and
decisively with only 1,075 United States Border Patrol agents - less than
one-tenth of today's force. The operation is still highly praised among
veterans of the Border Patrol.

Although there is little to no record of this operation in Ike's official
papers, one piece of historic evidence indicates how he felt. In 1951, Ike
wrote a letter to Sen. William Fulbright (D) of Arkansas. The senator had
just proposed that a special commission be created by Congress to examine
unethical conduct by government officials who accepted gifts and favors in
exchange for special treatment of private individuals.

General Eisenhower, who was gearing up for his run for the presidency, said
"Amen" to Senator Fulbright's proposal. He then quoted a report in The New
York Times, highlighting one paragraph that said: "The rise in illegal
border-crossing by Mexican 'wetbacks' to a current rate of more than
1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in
ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this
contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government."

Years later, the late Herbert Brownell Jr., Eisenhower's first attorney
general, said in an interview with this writer that the president had a
sense of urgency about illegal immigration when he took office.

America "was faced with a breakdown in law enforcement on a very large
scale," Mr. Brownell said. "When I say large scale, I mean hundreds of
thousands were coming in from Mexico [every year] without restraint."

Although an on-and-off guest-worker program for Mexicans was operating at
the time, farmers and ranchers in the Southwest had become dependent on an
additional low-cost, docile, illegal labor force of up to 3 million, mostly
Mexican, laborers.

According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of
Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal
workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans.
The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on
Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio
Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that
were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.

Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently
worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border
Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing
immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did
not dare" arrest their illegal workers.

Walt Edwards, who joined the Border Patrol in 1951, tells a similar story.
He says: "When we caught illegal aliens on farms and ranches, the farmer or
rancher would often call and complain [to officials in El Paso]. And
depending on how politically connected they were, there would be political
intervention. That is how we got into this mess we are in now."

Bill Chambers, who worked for a combined 33 years for the Border Patrol and
the then-called US Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), says
politically powerful people are still fueling the flow of illegals.

During the 1950s, however, this "Good Old Boy" system changed under
Eisenhower - if only for about 10 years.

In 1954, Ike appointed retired Gen. Joseph "Jumpin' Joe" Swing, a former
West Point classmate and veteran of the 101st Airborne, as the new INS
commissioner.

Influential politicians, including Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson (D) of Texas and
Sen. Pat McCarran (D) of Nevada, favored open borders, and were dead set
against strong border enforcement, Brownell said. But General Swing's close
connections to the president shielded him - and the Border Patrol - from
meddling by powerful political and corporate interests.

One of Swing's first decisive acts was to transfer certain entrenched
immigration officials out of the border area to other regions of the
country where their political connections with people such as Senator
Johnson would have no effect.

Then on June 17, 1954, what was called "Operation Wetback" began. Because
political resistance was lower in California and Arizona, the roundup of
aliens began there. Some 750 agents swept northward through agricultural
areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over
50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Another 488,000, fearing
arrest, had fled the country.

By mid-July, the crackdown extended northward into Utah, Nevada, and Idaho,
and eastward to Texas.

By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and an estimated
500,000 to 700,000 illegals had left the Lone Star State voluntarily.

Unlike today, Mexicans caught in the roundup were not simply released at
the border, where they could easily reenter the US. To discourage their
return, Swing arranged for buses and trains to take many aliens deep within
Mexico before being set free.

Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation
and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to
Vera Cruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles south.

The sea voyage was "a rough trip, and they did not like it," says Don
Coppock, who worked his way up from Border Patrolman in 1941 to eventually
head the Border Patrol from 1960 to 1973.

Mr. Coppock says he "cannot understand why [President] Bush let [today's]
problem get away from him as it has. I guess it was his compassionate
conservatism, and trying to please [Mexican President] Vincente Fox."

There are now said to be 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the US.
Of the Mexicans who live here, an estimated 85 percent are here illegally.
Border Patrol vets offer tips on curbing illegal immigration

One day in 1954, Border Patrol agent Walt Edwards picked up a newspaper in
Big Spring, Texas, and saw some startling news. The government was
launching an all-out drive to oust illegal aliens from the United States.

The orders came straight from the top, where the new president, Dwight
Eisenhower, had put a former West Point classmate, Gen. Joseph Swing, in
charge of immigration enforcement.

General Swing's fast-moving campaign soon secured America's borders - an
accomplishment no other president has since equaled. Illegal migration had
dropped 95 percent by the late 1950s.

Several retired Border Patrol agents who took part in the 1950s effort,
including Mr. Edwards, say much of what Swing did could be repeated today.

"Some say we cannot send 12 million illegals now in the United States back
where they came from. Of course we can!" Edwards says.

Donald Coppock, who headed the Patrol from 1960 to 1973, says that if Swing
and Ike were still running immigration enforcement, "they'd be on top of
this in a minute."

William Chambers, another '50s veteran, agrees. "They could do a pretty
good job" sealing the border.

Edwards says: "When we start enforcing the law, these various businesses
are, on their own, going to replace their [illegal] workforce with a legal
workforce."

While Congress debates building a fence on the border, these veterans say
other actions should have higher priority.

1. End the current practice of taking captured Mexican aliens to the border
and releasing them. Instead, deport them deep into Mexico, where return to
the US would be more costly.

2. Crack down hard on employers who hire illegals. Without jobs, the aliens
won't come.

3. End "catch and release" for non-Mexican aliens. It is common for illegal
migrants not from Mexico to be set free after their arrest if they promise
to appear later before a judge. Few show up.

The Patrol veterans say enforcement could also be aided by a legalized
guest- worker program that permits Mexicans to register in their country
for temporary jobs in the US. Eisenhower's team ran such a program. It
permitted up to 400,000 Mexicans a year to enter the US for various
agriculture jobs that lasted for 12 to 52 weeks.

• John Dillin is former managing editor of the Monitor.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:00:25 -0600, n5hsr wrote:

>
> 1. Building a big fence isn't going to stop illegal immigration, any
> more than the Berlin Wall stopped people from fleeing to the West.


Something I heard on the BBC a couple months ago that *REALLY* pissed me
off: There was a protest in Mexico City about the way *ILLEGALS* are
treated in the US. !WHAT!?!?!? Go to Mexico as an 'illegal' and see how
YOU are treated!!! (NOTE: Their jails suck, I have heard. You sure as HELL
won't be getting Welfare, Medicare, a Driver's License, etc. etc...)

A Mexican 'folk singer' said: "We are ALL citizens of North America, and
you CANNOT put up a wall to keep us out."

Huh? what does being a "citizen of North America" have to do with it? You
think because you live on the continent you can come and go as you desire,
and just take up residence whereever you want?

Like I said: go to Mexico and expect good treatment...

Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
want to live in Canada.

EdV wrote:
> Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
> want to live in Canada.

Is this the new sales pitch for the NAFTA Super Highway?

"EdV" <systmengr@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6789cc56-9fc8-442f-baf8-863f92dd02ad@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
> want to live in Canada.

No, just the same-sex married ones want to live in Canada, with their
lumberjack girlie friends since you guys have legalized same-sex marriage.
And since Massachussetts has done so, we probably should sell you most of
New England, too. But then you'd have to lower the tax rates in
Taxachusetts to match yours.

Charles the Curmudgeon

On Dec 12, 12:33 am, "F.H." <connec...@verizon.net> wrote:
> EdV wrote:
> > Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
> > want to live in Canada.
>
> Is this the new sales pitch for the NAFTA Super Highway?

Nice, I haven't thought of that. US should assist illegal immigrants
to get legalized in Canada. (or help them illegally enter Canada).
They will have more job opportunities in Canada. Greener pastures.
Illegal immigrants are found in all 50 states, its just a hop, skip
and a jump away from the Canadian border. Again what is Canada doing
right that US cant do?

On Dec 12, 5:15 am, "n5hsr" <n5...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "EdV" <systme...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6789cc56-9fc8-442f-baf8-863f92dd02ad@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
> > want to live in Canada.
>
> No, just the same-sex married ones want to live in Canada, with their
> lumberjack girlie friends since you guys have legalized same-sex marriage.
> And since Massachussetts has done so, we probably should sell you most of
> New England, too. But then you'd have to lower the tax rates in
> Taxachusetts to match yours.
>
> Charles the Curmudgeon

Brokeback Mountain was filmed in Calgary, Alberta

"EdV" <systmengr@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eaad676d-4d8b-458a-b3e1-4113c327cfa2@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 12:33 am, "F.H." <connec...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> EdV wrote:
>> > Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
>> > want to live in Canada.
>>
>> Is this the new sales pitch for the NAFTA Super Highway?
>
> Nice, I haven't thought of that. US should assist illegal immigrants
> to get legalized in Canada. (or help them illegally enter Canada).
> They will have more job opportunities in Canada. Greener pastures.
> Illegal immigrants are found in all 50 states, its just a hop, skip
> and a jump away from the Canadian border. Again what is Canada doing
> right that US cant do?

Yeah, but Canada has its own built in problem group. We have the
'Reconquista' here in the US, you guys have the Quebecqois. If the
Hispanics moved up there, you'd have to put three languages on your money,
not just two. And you'd have to teach them about Loonies and Toonies,
they're not used to handling coins worth over 25 cents and you may have to
exchange Pesos as well as US Dollars at the border towns. . .

Technically I'm decended from the Quebecqois on my father's side, but we
left Canada in 1852 for Illinois after they divided the St Lawrence property
so much it was so thin, one could only grow spaghetti. . .

Charles the Curmudgeon

On Dec 12, 3:15 pm, "n5hsr" <n5...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "EdV" <systme...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:eaad676d-4d8b-458a-b3e1-4113c327cfa2@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Dec 12, 12:33 am, "F.H." <connec...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> EdV wrote:
> >> > Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They
> >> > want to live in Canada.
>
> >> Is this the new sales pitch for the NAFTA Super Highway?
>
> > Nice, I haven't thought of that. US should assist illegal immigrants
> > to get legalized in Canada. (or help them illegally enter Canada).
> > They will have more job opportunities in Canada. Greener pastures.
> > Illegal immigrants are found in all 50 states, its just a hop, skip
> > and a jump away from the Canadian border. Again what is Canada doing
> > right that US cant do?
>
> Yeah, but Canada has its own built in problem group. We have the
> 'Reconquista' here in the US, you guys have the Quebecqois. If the
> Hispanics moved up there, you'd have to put three languages on your money,
> not just two. And you'd have to teach them about Loonies and Toonies,
> they're not used to handling coins worth over 25 cents and you may have to
> exchange Pesos as well as US Dollars at the border towns. . .
>
>
> Charles the Curmudgeon

Illegal immigrants are very adaptive and brave. Just imagine how much
they have to put up to when hiking across the borders, extreme heat
and cold depending on the time of the year. Learning money would not
be that hard. They don't carry a lot of money when they hike, they get
the money here in the US when they work.

Once those guys are here in the US crossing to Canada is breeze.
Again going back to the original presumptions, they go to the US
because of opportunity, but there are more opportunities in Canada.
Travel to Canada is not hard once your already in the US. Does Canada
have walls? The only thing I see is that Canadian employers dont hire
illegal immigrants *as much* as Americans do, maybe rules are being
followed, unlike here that we have rules but there's always a
loophole. My point is other countries enforce laws thats why they dont
have *that much* illegal/undocumented workers.

I dont know about you guys but I can't remember the last time when US
had a crackdown on illegal immigrants. What's the Patriot Act doing?
If the US is really serious in tracking down illegals, the size of the
federal prison will not matter =)