Hi all,

I sent this to our local Toyota dealer:


One more quick question. When I looked at the car listing on your site
I saw these two notations next to the various trim levels: SE and Natl
can you tell me what these mean?

I got this back:

To be honest with you I am not quite sure what those mean either.



I believe I have seen these designations elsewhere on other Toyota
sites. Does anyone know their significance? Just curious.

EB

"EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eSQYg.2146$IW6.307@trndny01...
> Hi all,
>
> I sent this to our local Toyota dealer:
>
>
> One more quick question. When I looked at the car listing on your site
> I saw these two notations next to the various trim levels: SE and Natl
> can you tell me what these mean?
>
> I got this back:
>
> To be honest with you I am not quite sure what those mean either.
>
>
>
> I believe I have seen these designations elsewhere on other Toyota
> sites. Does anyone know their significance? Just curious.
>
> EB

What kind of vehicle? What state are you in?
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O wrote:
>
> What kind of vehicle? What state are you in?

Ooops .. RAV4 .. Ohio ..

Metro Toyota near Cleveland.

http://www.metrotoyota.com/ou/brookp....do?page=f_new

if you try to specify a 2007 RAV 4, when you get to the trim selection
you get the SE and Natl show up. The model number differ by one letter,
eg 4430-S vs 4430-N.

Just curious really .. the price seems to be the same. It just seemed
odd the dealer's internet guy wouldn't know.

Lots of knowledgeable people here (like yourself ;-) .. so I thought
I might just ask.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:40:20 GMT, EB <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Ray O wrote:
>>
>> What kind of vehicle? What state are you in?
>
>Ooops .. RAV4 .. Ohio ..
>
>Metro Toyota near Cleveland.

I know a number of people who have bought cars at Metro and have been
very satisfied.

People seem to like Sunnyside too, but not quite as much IMO.

There's also Brunswick Auto Mart. I have not heard good things about
them. :-)

"EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:EeRYg.4027$5v5.2901@trndny08...
> Ray O wrote:
>>
>> What kind of vehicle? What state are you in?
>
> Ooops .. RAV4 .. Ohio ..
>
> Metro Toyota near Cleveland.
>
> http://www.metrotoyota.com/ou/brookp....do?page=f_new
>
> if you try to specify a 2007 RAV 4, when you get to the trim selection
> you get the SE and Natl show up. The model number differ by one letter,
> eg 4430-S vs 4430-N.
>

The 4 digit model number, e.g. 4430, is the U.S. model number. There is a
different model number for each body style, trim, engine, and transmission
type. The alpha character after the U.S. model number is called a phase
code and denotes pricing level for that model. It used to be that intro
pricing at the beginning of the model year was always "A", with the first
price increase being "B" and so on. The letters S and N at the beginning of
a model year mean that they are using a different coding system for the
phase code.

The Se and Natl are probably an internal stock designation by the dealership
and not part of Toyota's distribution system.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

> Just curious really .. the price seems to be the same. It just seemed
> odd the dealer's internet guy wouldn't know.
>
> Lots of knowledgeable people here (like yourself ;-) .. so I thought
> I might just ask.
>
>

Ray O wrote:
>
> The Se and Natl are probably an internal stock designation by the dealership
> and not part of Toyota's distribution system.

Ah .. ok. Thanks Ray!

Hi Stuart,

Stuart Krivis wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:40:20 GMT, EB <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Metro Toyota near Cleveland.
>
> I know a number of people who have bought cars at Metro and have been
> very satisfied.

Yes, I have heard that too, though my experience with them via
the internet has not been impressive. Their guy just bombarded my
mailbox with junkmail (6 messages in the first 24 hours) and then
continued to send me irrelevant information about cars I was
not interested in - I had made it very clear I was only looking
at a RAV4, not pickup trucks etc.

> People seem to like Sunnyside too, but not quite as much IMO.

I talked to them on the phone, and they seemed very nice.

Motorcars Toyota on Mayfield Road in Cleveland seems very responsive
too, both on-line and by phone.

> There's also Brunswick Auto Mart. I have not heard good things about
> them. :-)

Yeah, I wasn't impressed, I called them today, and they were not
very friendly or helpful. Told me that 2007 RAV4 hadn't hit the
lots yet .. I guess they were only talking about their own.


I have been dealing mostly with Premier Toyota in Amherst (closest
to Oberlin, where I am) and they have been quite nice so far. Though,
today I was talking to the sales manager and he misrepresented the
truth (I'd like to not say "lied" as I can't recall the exact words
he used, but certainly he implied something false) which put a damper
on my experience so far. This was about the documentation fee, he said
it was a standard required $250 fee that all dealerships were charging
(or required to charge - I don't quite remember)

Of course it only took me 10 minutes to find out that it's entirely
up to the dealer to charge up to $250 (they are not required), and
that all of the $$ goes into their pockets.

Do they really get away with this a lot? I mean it didn't take very
long to find out. Still, what a pain to deal with.


eb

---

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/dealer_licensing/dlrs_faq.htm


Q21:
How much can a seller entering into a retail installment contract charge
a customer for the preparation of documents?
A21: On June 30, 2006, an amendment to section 1317.07 of the Revised
Code, which governs retail installment contracts, took effect.

That section now provides that a seller entering into a retail
installment contract can charge a fee of up to two hundred fifty dollars
($250) for preparation of documents related to the sale. Previously,
the maximum fee that could be charged for document preparation was one
hundred dollars.

As a result of the amendment, motor vehicle dealers selling motor
vehicles to customers under retail installment contracts can charge the
customer this two hundred fifty dollar document preparation fee in
addition to other fees associated with the sale of the vehicle (taxes,
registration fees, etc.). It is important to note that the dealership
is not required to charge the document preparation fee.

The Department of Public Safety, Bureau of Motor Vehicles did not play
any role in the adoption of the amendment to section 1317.07, and
receives no portion of the document preparation fee. Instead, the fee
is retained by the motor vehicle dealer.

"EB" <ebonak-a-@t-hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:T7VYg.3385$kG5.1586@trndny07...


> . This was about the documentation fee, he said
> it was a standard required $250 fee that all dealerships were charging
> (or required to charge - I don't quite remember)
>
> Of course it only took me 10 minutes to find out that it's entirely
> up to the dealer to charge up to $250 (they are not required), and
> that all of the $$ goes into their pockets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
HOLY SH*T ! (yeah, I know, I'm shouting, but I tend to do that when I
become apoplectic!)

That caps it. I would never pay $250 for a dealer's clerk to write up a
sales slip or two!
Last time I had any dealings with a dealer, the doc fee was $45 as I
recall.....and That's
a ripoff. What other retail sales organization has the chutzpah to charge
such a fee in the first place?
I suppose however that if they waive the doc fee, they'll just add it on to
another item or make sure
in some way that they'll get the dough. Insufferable!

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:06:11 GMT, EB <ebonak-a-@t-hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi Stuart,
>
>Stuart Krivis wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:40:20 GMT, EB <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Metro Toyota near Cleveland.
>>
>> I know a number of people who have bought cars at Metro and have been
>> very satisfied.
>
>Yes, I have heard that too, though my experience with them via
>the internet has not been impressive. Their guy just bombarded my
>mailbox with junkmail (6 messages in the first 24 hours) and then
>continued to send me irrelevant information about cars I was
>not interested in - I had made it very clear I was only looking
>at a RAV4, not pickup trucks etc.

I wonder whether that's normal, or whether one salesman got carried
away?

>
>Motorcars Toyota on Mayfield Road in Cleveland seems very responsive
>too, both on-line and by phone.

I forgot about them. :-) Yes, I've heard good things about them too.


>
>I have been dealing mostly with Premier Toyota in Amherst (closest
>to Oberlin, where I am) and they have been quite nice so far. Though,
>today I was talking to the sales manager and he misrepresented the
>truth (I'd like to not say "lied" as I can't recall the exact words
>he used, but certainly he implied something false) which put a damper
>on my experience so far. This was about the documentation fee, he said
>it was a standard required $250 fee that all dealerships were charging
>(or required to charge - I don't quite remember)
>
>Of course it only took me 10 minutes to find out that it's entirely
>up to the dealer to charge up to $250 (they are not required), and
>that all of the $$ goes into their pockets.
>
>Do they really get away with this a lot? I mean it didn't take very
>long to find out. Still, what a pain to deal with.

A "documentation" fee seems to be pretty standard around here. It's
just added dealer profit. :-(

Hey, at least they told you about it up front. Most dealers don't
mention it until you're filling out the final paperwork.

>
>http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/dealer_licensing/dlrs_faq.htm


>That section now provides that a seller entering into a retail
>installment contract can charge a fee of up to two hundred fifty dollars
>($250) for preparation of documents related to the sale. Previously,


This just goes to show how unfriendly Ohio is to consumers in general.
Preparing documents to sell a car is simply a business expense. The
dealer should just suck it up and then take it off their taxes.

Of course, it would probably only come to $10-20 per car, so I guess
they're not interested in that. Instead, they see this as a chance to
squeeze more money from the customer, and the state govt. thinks that
is just a swell idea.

Stuart Krivis wrote:
> Their guy [Metro Toyota] just bombarded my
>> mailbox with junkmail (6 messages in the first 24 hours) and then
>> continued to send me irrelevant information about cars I was
>> not interested in - I had made it very clear I was only looking
>> at a RAV4, not pickup trucks etc.
>
> I wonder whether that's normal, or whether one salesman got carried
> away?

I think he just gets an inquiry, and dumps a bunch of pre-canned e-mail
out. It would be much more effective to actually read the request first
IMHO instead of spamming. Like I said, this did not impress me.

>> Motorcars Toyota on Mayfield Road in Cleveland seems very responsive
>> too, both on-line and by phone.
>
> I forgot about them. :-) Yes, I've heard good things about them too.

At this point I am going to look at them, Sunnyside, Metro and Premier
locally.

> A "documentation" fee seems to be pretty standard around here. It's
> just added dealer profit. :-(
>
> Hey, at least they told you about it up front. Most dealers don't
> mention it until you're filling out the final paperwork.

ugh .. well, I am just going to roll it all into one final price,
they can toss it in there if they like, it's just going to inflate
their final offer to me.

> This just goes to show how unfriendly Ohio is to consumers in general.
> Preparing documents to sell a car is simply a business expense.

Yes, seems extremely silly. But then again, the whole car buying experience
is. I can't believe how much time I have spent reading/researching about
all that is involved. I buy one car every 15 years or so, so it's not like
I'm practiced in this. If I was getting one every 2 or 3 years, it might
even be fun because I'd presumably know what I was doing .. :-|