Ugh.

I've had a grrrrreat weekend here. I noticed my wife's
car (95 Toyota Camry) was leaking gasoline and found the source of the
leak to be a rubber hose between two metal fuel lines, when I removed
the hose the metal line leading up to the gas tank was so corroded that
it snapped off. After browsing these forums, reading my Haynes manual
3109830 times, and a quick trip the local auto parts store I got the
courage up to make the repair myself. I bought a length of metal brake
line and after a lot of swearing and effort I got it up and around the
gas tank to attach to the fuel pump. The car is up and running and
better yet, my wife has no idea that I won't point I was thinking I
had killed her car! At this point I am trying to evaluate if I need
further work or if I can go back to football and beer next weekend....

Here are my concerns and worries:

1. The factory installed metal fuel line I broke had some nifty
flaring on the ends of the pipe, one was a little more than an inch in
and seemed to be a "stop" or visual clue for how far the hose
should over lap the pipe, the other flare was at the opening and I'm
guessing was designed to help prevent leaks. The brake like I used to
replace it had none of these nifty little bumps and flares..... are
these huge preventative designed to the point that their absence should
make me question the durability of my handiwork? My Haynes manual has
a cut away picture of this type of piping with the two flares and has
specific dimensions as to how much should over lap and where the clamp
should be... the preciseness of their drawing and the impreciseness of
what I actually did on the repair are making me worry. The guy at the
auto shop telling me that I would be able to make the repair with the
brake line he was selling me even without the flares made me a little
nervous as well...

2. In replacing this line I also reattached two sections of rubber
hose, one up by the fuel pump and one down below where the original
leak was. I'm relatively new to the auto motive do-it-yourself game,
the biggest project I have tackled to date was replacing a set of rear
struts, and I'm concerned (can you tell I like to worry?!?) that I
didn't put the hoses on tight enough. Here is one test I was
tinkering with, when I was playing with attaching the hose to a length
of metal tubing, even with the clamp screwed on as tight as I could get
it I could still pull on the rubber hosing and make it slowly slide off
the metal tubing.... Should that have happened? I seem to recall
thinking of hose clamps as something that should not be tightened as
hard as possible or they will fail prematurely....? Yes? No? maybe so?
On the same subject the clamps I removed were a sort of quick release
Toyota clamp with no adjustment possible, can you reuse these clamps?
It seems like over time the metal wouldn't grip as tightly as the day
it rolled off the assembly line. Are the adjustable screw clamps
better?

3. How much should the hose be overlapped onto the metal piping?
Toyota has the second flare/bump about an inch and a half on the pipe,
but one of my connections I can only manage a one inch over lap, which
leaves me a good half inch short of their "stop" bump.

4. How much pressure am I dealing with in the fuel lines? Is it high
enough to cause a rubber hose to fly off and gas to spew all over the
place? Along the same thread, would some sort of pressure check on the
fuel system give me an idea of how durable my repair will (or won't)
be? Am I literally ( no pun intended) playing with fire here?

5. And finally, I am considering going to the dealer and buying a
replacement part for the metal tubing section since it would be bent
correctly and it would have the proper flares already on it. My
concern is that if I bought this replacement section that I would have
to drop the gas tank to install this oddly bent section of pipe, does
anyone have any experience here? The metal tubing I currently have on
the car was a PAIN in the rear to work into the tight space. Anyone
have any experience here?


Lastly, I heartfelt thank you to this forum for helping me get my car
up and running at a point when things looked pretty darn bleak. Now I
am hoping for a little bit more help and guidance.


Sincerely,

Blake18

"blake18" <zachenos@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163482485.555416.170690@b28g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> Ugh.
>
> I've had a grrrrreat weekend here. I noticed my wife's
> car (95 Toyota Camry) was leaking gasoline and found the source of the
> leak to be a rubber hose between two metal fuel lines, when I removed
> the hose the metal line leading up to the gas tank was so corroded that
> it snapped off. After browsing these forums, reading my Haynes manual
> 3109830 times, and a quick trip the local auto parts store I got the
> courage up to make the repair myself. I bought a length of metal brake
> line and after a lot of swearing and effort I got it up and around the
> gas tank to attach to the fuel pump. The car is up and running and
> better yet, my wife has no idea that I won't point I was thinking I
> had killed her car! At this point I am trying to evaluate if I need
> further work or if I can go back to football and beer next weekend....
>
> Here are my concerns and worries:
>
> 1. The factory installed metal fuel line I broke had some nifty
> flaring on the ends of the pipe, one was a little more than an inch in
> and seemed to be a "stop" or visual clue for how far the hose
> should over lap the pipe, the other flare was at the opening and I'm
> guessing was designed to help prevent leaks. The brake like I used to
> replace it had none of these nifty little bumps and flares..... are
> these huge preventative designed to the point that their absence should
> make me question the durability of my handiwork? My Haynes manual has
> a cut away picture of this type of piping with the two flares and has
> specific dimensions as to how much should over lap and where the clamp
> should be... the preciseness of their drawing and the impreciseness of
> what I actually did on the repair are making me worry. The guy at the
> auto shop telling me that I would be able to make the repair with the
> brake line he was selling me even without the flares made me a little
> nervous as well...

I think you were working on the fuel vapor return line, not the supply line.
If so, the hose should overlap about the same as the original one did.

I would not trust the advice of a parts counter guy at an auto parts store.
That person may be knowledgeable, but chances are he or she is not.

>
> 2. In replacing this line I also reattached two sections of rubber
> hose, one up by the fuel pump and one down below where the original
> leak was. I'm relatively new to the auto motive do-it-yourself game,
> the biggest project I have tackled to date was replacing a set of rear
> struts, and I'm concerned (can you tell I like to worry?!?) that I
> didn't put the hoses on tight enough. Here is one test I was
> tinkering with, when I was playing with attaching the hose to a length
> of metal tubing, even with the clamp screwed on as tight as I could get
> it I could still pull on the rubber hosing and make it slowly slide off
> the metal tubing.... Should that have happened? I seem to recall
> thinking of hose clamps as something that should not be tightened as
> hard as possible or they will fail prematurely....? Yes? No? maybe so?
> On the same subject the clamps I removed were a sort of quick release
> Toyota clamp with no adjustment possible, can you reuse these clamps?
> It seems like over time the metal wouldn't grip as tightly as the day
> it rolled off the assembly line. Are the adjustable screw clamps
> better?

If the clamp was just a spring clamp, the fuel line may have been the vapor
return line, not the supply line. If the line was a return line, the spring
clamp is fine. The supply side has uses threaded fittings to withstand the
higher pressures.

>
> 3. How much should the hose be overlapped onto the metal piping?
> Toyota has the second flare/bump about an inch and a half on the pipe,
> but one of my connections I can only manage a one inch over lap, which
> leaves me a good half inch short of their "stop" bump.

See above.
>
> 4. How much pressure am I dealing with in the fuel lines? Is it high
> enough to cause a rubber hose to fly off and gas to spew all over the
> place? Along the same thread, would some sort of pressure check on the
> fuel system give me an idea of how durable my repair will (or won't)
> be? Am I literally ( no pun intended) playing with fire here?

The supply side can be 40 ~ 50 PSI.
>
> 5. And finally, I am considering going to the dealer and buying a
> replacement part for the metal tubing section since it would be bent
> correctly and it would have the proper flares already on it. My
> concern is that if I bought this replacement section that I would have
> to drop the gas tank to install this oddly bent section of pipe, does
> anyone have any experience here? The metal tubing I currently have on
> the car was a PAIN in the rear to work into the tight space. Anyone
> have any experience here?
>
>
> Lastly, I heartfelt thank you to this forum for helping me get my car
> up and running at a point when things looked pretty darn bleak. Now I
> am hoping for a little bit more help and guidance.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Blake18
>
Invest in a tubing bender to bend tubing, and practice a little first to
bend without kinking.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Blake18,

You are justified in being concerned about a sudden fire.

As you mentioned, no amount of clamp tightening seems to prevent the rubber
hose from slipping off the steel line. It is for this reason that the
original equipment had a 'dimple' flaring.

A problem could occur when the fuel pump pressurizes the fuel in the line.
If the rubber hose slips, the volume in the line is increased, and the
pressure will build again, possibly allowing the hose to be pushed off.
Then the spilling fuel could contact a spark or hot surface such as an
exhaust component. The result could be ignition so rapid that you might not
be able to exit the vehicle, even if it is already stopped.

There are alternatives, for example using a flaring tool (free loan at some
parts stores such as Canadian Tire, Partsource) and steel line with
mechanical fittings - similar to brake line fittings except larger diameter.
There may be other possible fixes.

Don't take a chance on getting hurt.

Good luck with this,

- Jack

Ray O -

Thank you for the lightning fast reply!

I would say the line was definately the return/vapor line as I
saw the other line coming off the fuel pump with the threaded fitting
and I was not working on that one. One reservation I have is that when
I originally broke the line pulling the hose off it leak/spewed fuel at
a good rate, was this some sort of syhpon/suction action causing fuel
to come out the vapor/return line? I know gasoline vapors are
extremely explosive, if not more dangerous than gasoline itself so I
will presume I ain't out of the woods just because this line isn't the
high pressure line that actually carries the fuel? Yes? No? Maybe so?

After reading a few of the replies to my post I am planning on
revisiting my repair this weekend (bye bye beer and football!), which
leads me to some follow up questions (woohooo!)

What is the general opinion on buying metal piping, adding a
little flare at the opening and bending it to fit versus throwing money
into the coffers of Toyota for the exact precise piece they used when
it was originally manfactured?

Any tricks or tips to getting hose onto the tubing? I added a
little bit of oil to lube up the hoses but the connections where I have
less the original overlapage (is that a word?!) it was because I
couldn't get the bloody thing on any farther, on one connection this
was was because of cramped space and the fact the tube I was connecting
onto is slightly flexilble and moves as I push it, tips tricks ideas ?

I am getting some conflicting information on whether or not I
should expect the hose to slip on the tube when I give it a good tug
even when I tighten the screw clamp down like mad. I'm thinking maybe
this is because some people think I might be working on the pressurized
fuel line, which it now appears that I am not. If the spring clamps
were put on there orginally (like the PCV valve and hoses) I am pretty
sure I could pull those off without removing the clamp so I am starting
to come to the conclusion that the tightness between the hose and tube
connection is not meant to be so strong that it is immovable with the
clamp on?

Thanks again to those who took a moment out of their
day to make mine a little better!

Blake

"blake18" <zachenos@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163518708.437031.153800@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
> Ray O -
>
> Thank you for the lightning fast reply!

You're welcome, although you should not mention lightning and fuel lines in
the same sentence ;-)

> I would say the line was definately the return/vapor line as I
> saw the other line coming off the fuel pump with the threaded fitting
> and I was not working on that one. One reservation I have is that when
> I originally broke the line pulling the hose off it leak/spewed fuel at
> a good rate, was this some sort of syhpon/suction action causing fuel
> to come out the vapor/return line? I know gasoline vapors are
> extremely explosive, if not more dangerous than gasoline itself so I
> will presume I ain't out of the woods just because this line isn't the
> high pressure line that actually carries the fuel? Yes? No? Maybe so?

I do not know the source of the fuel in the vapor return line, but I do not
think there should be much, if any liquid in the lines. You may want to
check the charcoal canister to make sure it is not saturated and full of
liquid fuel. As long as there are no external leaks, there is not much
chance of a fire from the return line.

> After reading a few of the replies to my post I am planning on
> revisiting my repair this weekend (bye bye beer and football!), which
> leads me to some follow up questions (woohooo!)
>
> What is the general opinion on buying metal piping, adding a
> little flare at the opening and bending it to fit versus throwing money
> into the coffers of Toyota for the exact precise piece they used when
> it was originally manfactured?

I would not have a problem bending the vapor return lines because they are
not under much pressure. I would only use the pre-made factory lines for
the supply line.

> Any tricks or tips to getting hose onto the tubing? I added a
> little bit of oil to lube up the hoses but the connections where I have
> less the original overlapage (is that a word?!) it was because I
> couldn't get the bloody thing on any farther, on one connection this
> was was because of cramped space and the fact the tube I was connecting
> onto is slightly flexilble and moves as I push it, tips tricks ideas ?

You can try warming the hose with an incandescent drop light before slipping
it on to the tubing. For obvious reasons, do not use a heat gun or open
flame to warm up the hose!

>
> I am getting some conflicting information on whether or not I
> should expect the hose to slip on the tube when I give it a good tug
> even when I tighten the screw clamp down like mad. I'm thinking maybe
> this is because some people think I might be working on the pressurized
> fuel line, which it now appears that I am not. If the spring clamps
> were put on there orginally (like the PCV valve and hoses) I am pretty
> sure I could pull those off without removing the clamp so I am starting
> to come to the conclusion that the tightness between the hose and tube
> connection is not meant to be so strong that it is immovable with the
> clamp on?
>
> Thanks again to those who took a moment out of their
> day to make mine a little better!
>
> Blake
>
If the factory used a spring clamp then it is definitely not a pressurized
supply line, so as long as the spring clamp is squeezing the hose, and the
hose is not leaking, then it is tight enough.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:38:28 -0800, blake18 wrote:

I'm going to top post to avoid the lengthy discussion below.

When we replaced the tank in my Supra, the fittings were so tight/rusted
we had to cut them. I was running around looking for compression fittings,
flares, etc, then I got the bright idea...it's a Toyota, how many
different fittings can Toyota have?!

To my delight, not many. I took the old fitting with me (after we cut it,
we finally separated it with a clamp and a wrench) and brought it to a
parts store.

The fuel line from a '91 Camry had the same fittings, and was in 2 pieces,
so we had two of each fitting in case we f@cked something up. My
'assistant' was an ASE certified GM tech, so I guess he knew what he was
doing!

He also had a flare nut tool. It fits inside the tubing, you tighten it
and it makes a flare (it looks like a bead)inside the tubing that will
hold a clamp. I spent a few extra $$$ and got GOOD clamps made for fuel
lines; we spliced the new hose and fitting into the piece we cut from the
fuel pump, and attached it with 100PSI fuel line (reinforced rubber). We
got the two metal pipes right up against each other and ran the fuel line
over them and clamped it. We used 3" of fuel line to cover a very small
gap.

It has held up well. I drove the car all summer without a single leak.



> Ray O -
>
> Thank you for the lightning fast reply!
>
> I would say the line was definately the return/vapor line as I
> saw the other line coming off the fuel pump with the threaded fitting
> and I was not working on that one. One reservation I have is that when
> I originally broke the line pulling the hose off it leak/spewed fuel at
> a good rate, was this some sort of syhpon/suction action causing fuel
> to come out the vapor/return line? I know gasoline vapors are
> extremely explosive, if not more dangerous than gasoline itself so I
> will presume I ain't out of the woods just because this line isn't the
> high pressure line that actually carries the fuel? Yes? No? Maybe so?
>
> After reading a few of the replies to my post I am planning on
> revisiting my repair this weekend (bye bye beer and football!), which
> leads me to some follow up questions (woohooo!)
>
> What is the general opinion on buying metal piping, adding a
> little flare at the opening and bending it to fit versus throwing money
> into the coffers of Toyota for the exact precise piece they used when
> it was originally manfactured?
>
> Any tricks or tips to getting hose onto the tubing? I added a
> little bit of oil to lube up the hoses but the connections where I have
> less the original overlapage (is that a word?!) it was because I
> couldn't get the bloody thing on any farther, on one connection this
> was was because of cramped space and the fact the tube I was connecting
> onto is slightly flexilble and moves as I push it, tips tricks ideas ?
>
> I am getting some conflicting information on whether or not I
> should expect the hose to slip on the tube when I give it a good tug
> even when I tighten the screw clamp down like mad. I'm thinking maybe
> this is because some people think I might be working on the pressurized
> fuel line, which it now appears that I am not. If the spring clamps
> were put on there orginally (like the PCV valve and hoses) I am pretty
> sure I could pull those off without removing the clamp so I am starting
> to come to the conclusion that the tightness between the hose and tube
> connection is not meant to be so strong that it is immovable with the
> clamp on?
>
> Thanks again to those who took a moment out of their
> day to make mine a little better!
>
> Blake

I repaired the fuel line on an old tocoma rust bucket.
I bought the replacement line from toyota, very expensive but bent to fit.
I could not snake the line into position without removing other components
so I cut the line in two and was able to get it into position. I used rubber
fuel line and clamps to reconnect the fuel line.
Worked fine for about a year and then the brake lines rusted out.
I donated the truck....

Steve




"blake18" <zachenos@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163482485.555416.170690@b28g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> Ugh.
>
> I've had a grrrrreat weekend here. I noticed my wife's
> car (95 Toyota Camry) was leaking gasoline and found the source of the
> leak to be a rubber hose between two metal fuel lines, when I removed
> the hose the metal line leading up to the gas tank was so corroded that
> it snapped off. After browsing these forums, reading my Haynes manual
> 3109830 times, and a quick trip the local auto parts store I got the
> courage up to make the repair myself. I bought a length of metal brake
> line and after a lot of swearing and effort I got it up and around the
> gas tank to attach to the fuel pump. The car is up and running and
> better yet, my wife has no idea that I won't point I was thinking I
> had killed her car! At this point I am trying to evaluate if I need
> further work or if I can go back to football and beer next weekend....
>
> Here are my concerns and worries:
>
> 1. The factory installed metal fuel line I broke had some nifty
> flaring on the ends of the pipe, one was a little more than an inch in
> and seemed to be a "stop" or visual clue for how far the hose
> should over lap the pipe, the other flare was at the opening and I'm
> guessing was designed to help prevent leaks. The brake like I used to
> replace it had none of these nifty little bumps and flares..... are
> these huge preventative designed to the point that their absence should
> make me question the durability of my handiwork? My Haynes manual has
> a cut away picture of this type of piping with the two flares and has
> specific dimensions as to how much should over lap and where the clamp
> should be... the preciseness of their drawing and the impreciseness of
> what I actually did on the repair are making me worry. The guy at the
> auto shop telling me that I would be able to make the repair with the
> brake line he was selling me even without the flares made me a little
> nervous as well...
>
> 2. In replacing this line I also reattached two sections of rubber
> hose, one up by the fuel pump and one down below where the original
> leak was. I'm relatively new to the auto motive do-it-yourself game,
> the biggest project I have tackled to date was replacing a set of rear
> struts, and I'm concerned (can you tell I like to worry?!?) that I
> didn't put the hoses on tight enough. Here is one test I was
> tinkering with, when I was playing with attaching the hose to a length
> of metal tubing, even with the clamp screwed on as tight as I could get
> it I could still pull on the rubber hosing and make it slowly slide off
> the metal tubing.... Should that have happened? I seem to recall
> thinking of hose clamps as something that should not be tightened as
> hard as possible or they will fail prematurely....? Yes? No? maybe so?
> On the same subject the clamps I removed were a sort of quick release
> Toyota clamp with no adjustment possible, can you reuse these clamps?
> It seems like over time the metal wouldn't grip as tightly as the day
> it rolled off the assembly line. Are the adjustable screw clamps
> better?
>
> 3. How much should the hose be overlapped onto the metal piping?
> Toyota has the second flare/bump about an inch and a half on the pipe,
> but one of my connections I can only manage a one inch over lap, which
> leaves me a good half inch short of their "stop" bump.
>
> 4. How much pressure am I dealing with in the fuel lines? Is it high
> enough to cause a rubber hose to fly off and gas to spew all over the
> place? Along the same thread, would some sort of pressure check on the
> fuel system give me an idea of how durable my repair will (or won't)
> be? Am I literally ( no pun intended) playing with fire here?
>
> 5. And finally, I am considering going to the dealer and buying a
> replacement part for the metal tubing section since it would be bent
> correctly and it would have the proper flares already on it. My
> concern is that if I bought this replacement section that I would have
> to drop the gas tank to install this oddly bent section of pipe, does
> anyone have any experience here? The metal tubing I currently have on
> the car was a PAIN in the rear to work into the tight space. Anyone
> have any experience here?
>
>
> Lastly, I heartfelt thank you to this forum for helping me get my car
> up and running at a point when things looked pretty darn bleak. Now I
> am hoping for a little bit more help and guidance.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Blake18
>