I have Fox Business on, and the car companies are making a case that if they
go bankrupt nobody will buy their products because there is fear that if the
company is bankrupt, then buyers will not be able to find service.

That is a load of crap.

The car companies will file Chapter 11, which allows -- requires -- a
restructuring of debt and labor contracts. In the end, it could easily work
out to be a benefit to the car makers if they did file Chapter 11.

There is a labor union guy on that is selling Neil Cavuto on the idea that
there will be 3 million jobs lost UNLESS the feds step in with an open
checkbook. (Neil is not buying the idea, by the way, but the union guy is
selling it just the same.) If the car makers were talking of filing Chapter
7 and shttering their operations, then yes, there could be job losses. But,
assuming they actually _want_ to continue building cars, then they would
need the workers they have, so job cuts would be minimal and limited to the
least productive ones. Granted, the workers that remain might find smaller
pay checks or retirement benefits, but their jobs would remain for anybody
that wanted to work under the new wage schedule. Pay cuts and job losses are
completely different things, the union spokeshole is insisting job cuts will
result when the reality is pay cuts are the likely result. Worker flight
might happen, but that is not a job cut.

The Big Three are reporting today that their November sales are off in the
area of 50% from last year same period. This is a significant drop, no
question. Keep in mind, this is US sales, sales in foreign markets are doing
well according to the companies. Ford is talking about shedding itself of
Volvo.

In article <gh49bu$bhd$1@news.motzarella.org>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net> wrote:

> I have Fox Business on, and the car companies are making a case that if they
> go bankrupt nobody will buy their products because there is fear that if the
> company is bankrupt, then buyers will not be able to find service.
>
> That is a load of crap.
>
> The car companies will file Chapter 11, which allows -- requires -- a
> restructuring of debt and labor contracts. In the end, it could easily work
> out to be a benefit to the car makers if they did file Chapter 11.
>
> There is a labor union guy on that is selling Neil Cavuto on the idea that
> there will be 3 million jobs lost UNLESS the feds step in with an open
> checkbook. (Neil is not buying the idea, by the way, but the union guy is
> selling it just the same.) If the car makers were talking of filing Chapter
> 7 and shttering their operations, then yes, there could be job losses. But,
> assuming they actually _want_ to continue building cars, then they would
> need the workers they have, so job cuts would be minimal and limited to the
> least productive ones. Granted, the workers that remain might find smaller
> pay checks or retirement benefits, but their jobs would remain for anybody
> that wanted to work under the new wage schedule. Pay cuts and job losses are
> completely different things, the union spokeshole is insisting job cuts will
> result when the reality is pay cuts are the likely result. Worker flight
> might happen, but that is not a job cut.
>
> The Big Three are reporting today that their November sales are off in the
> area of 50% from last year same period. This is a significant drop, no
> question. Keep in mind, this is US sales, sales in foreign markets are doing
> well according to the companies. Ford is talking about shedding itself of
> Volvo.

car companies need to find a way to make money, and restructuring is the
only way. That way, they'll be able to tear up union contracts and
start over. It will be good for the unions and it's members.
--


"It's deja vu all over again"
Yogi Berra

Toyota sales was off more than Fords

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:gh49bu$bhd$1@news.motzarella.org...
>I have Fox Business on, and the car companies are making a case that if
>they go bankrupt nobody will buy their products because there is fear that
>if the company is bankrupt, then buyers will not be able to find service.
>
> That is a load of crap.
>
> The car companies will file Chapter 11, which allows -- requires -- a
> restructuring of debt and labor contracts. In the end, it could easily
> work out to be a benefit to the car makers if they did file Chapter 11.
>
> There is a labor union guy on that is selling Neil Cavuto on the idea that
> there will be 3 million jobs lost UNLESS the feds step in with an open
> checkbook. (Neil is not buying the idea, by the way, but the union guy is
> selling it just the same.) If the car makers were talking of filing
> Chapter 7 and shttering their operations, then yes, there could be job
> losses. But, assuming they actually _want_ to continue building cars, then
> they would need the workers they have, so job cuts would be minimal and
> limited to the least productive ones. Granted, the workers that remain
> might find smaller pay checks or retirement benefits, but their jobs would
> remain for anybody that wanted to work under the new wage schedule. Pay
> cuts and job losses are completely different things, the union spokeshole
> is insisting job cuts will result when the reality is pay cuts are the
> likely result. Worker flight might happen, but that is not a job cut.
>
> The Big Three are reporting today that their November sales are off in the
> area of 50% from last year same period. This is a significant drop, no
> question. Keep in mind, this is US sales, sales in foreign markets are
> doing well according to the companies. Ford is talking about shedding
> itself of Volvo.
>
>

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote in message
news:r4WdnfCjQ6TeJ6jUnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@ptd.net...
> Toyota sales was off more than Fords
>


Please tell me that we are not considering bailing out Toyota ...

On Dec 2, 3:29*pm, "Jeff Strickland" <cr...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I have Fox Business on, and the car companies are making a case that if they
> go bankrupt nobody will buy their products because there is fear that if the
> company is bankrupt, then buyers will not be able to find service.
>
> That is a load of crap.
>
> The car companies will file Chapter 11, which allows -- requires -- a
> restructuring of debt and labor contracts. In the end, it could easily work
> out to be a benefit to the car makers if they did file Chapter 11.
>
> There is a labor union guy on that is selling Neil Cavuto on the idea that
> there will be 3 million jobs lost UNLESS the feds step in with an open
> checkbook. (Neil is not buying the idea, by the way, but the union guy is
> selling it just the same.) If the car makers were talking of filing Chapter
> 7 and shttering their operations, then yes, there could be job losses. But,
> assuming they actually _want_ to continue building cars, then they would
> need the workers they have, so job cuts would be minimal and limited to the
> least productive ones. Granted, the workers that remain might find smaller
> pay checks or retirement benefits, but their jobs would remain for anybody
> that wanted to work under the new wage schedule. Pay cuts and job losses are
> completely different things, the union spokeshole is insisting job cuts will
> result when the reality is pay cuts are the likely result. Worker flight
> might happen, but that is not a job cut.
>
> The Big Three are reporting today that their November sales are off in the
> area of 50% from last year same period. This is a significant drop, no
> question. Keep in mind, this is US sales, sales in foreign markets are doing
> well according to the companies. Ford is talking about shedding itself of
> Volvo.
"For example, Chrysler, a large U.S. automaker was in need
of a bailout in the early 1980s. The U.S. government stepped in and
offered roughly $1.2 billion to the failing company. Chrysler was able
to pay the entire bailout back." That is 3 billion in todays money.
I rather not rely on your knowledge of chapter 11 and the
internal financials of the companies. I believe you talk about things
far beyond your education. I have no problem in loaning them money.
Perhaps we should try your way and just hope 3 million people don't
lose their jobs, just hope foreign companies don't eat our market
share, just hope that the people who lose their jobs can somehow keep
paying their mortgages and not cause another round of banks going
bankrupt. Maybe creating the worst depression in history will be a
good thing. Are you an American or from one of those foreign companies
hoping to get the jobs and our money into your foreign bank accounts?
Wait, I forgot we should just hope something better will
magically sprout from the ground after we kill off one of the few
things we still make in this country.

<mays.michael@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:49a1f840-e499-4f05-8081-c0d48644723d@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 2, 3:29 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <cr...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I have Fox Business on, and the car companies are making a case that if
> they
> go bankrupt nobody will buy their products because there is fear that if
> the
> company is bankrupt, then buyers will not be able to find service.
>
> That is a load of crap.
>
> The car companies will file Chapter 11, which allows -- requires -- a
> restructuring of debt and labor contracts. In the end, it could easily
> work
> out to be a benefit to the car makers if they did file Chapter 11.
>
> There is a labor union guy on that is selling Neil Cavuto on the idea that
> there will be 3 million jobs lost UNLESS the feds step in with an open
> checkbook. (Neil is not buying the idea, by the way, but the union guy is
> selling it just the same.) If the car makers were talking of filing
> Chapter
> 7 and shttering their operations, then yes, there could be job losses.
> But,
> assuming they actually _want_ to continue building cars, then they would
> need the workers they have, so job cuts would be minimal and limited to
> the
> least productive ones. Granted, the workers that remain might find smaller
> pay checks or retirement benefits, but their jobs would remain for anybody
> that wanted to work under the new wage schedule. Pay cuts and job losses
> are
> completely different things, the union spokeshole is insisting job cuts
> will
> result when the reality is pay cuts are the likely result. Worker flight
> might happen, but that is not a job cut.
>
> The Big Three are reporting today that their November sales are off in the
> area of 50% from last year same period. This is a significant drop, no
> question. Keep in mind, this is US sales, sales in foreign markets are
> doing
> well according to the companies. Ford is talking about shedding itself of
> Volvo.
"For example, Chrysler, a large U.S. automaker was in need
of a bailout in the early 1980s. The U.S. government stepped in and
offered roughly $1.2 billion to the failing company. Chrysler was able
to pay the entire bailout back." That is 3 billion in todays money.
I rather not rely on your knowledge of chapter 11 and the
internal financials of the companies. I believe you talk about things
far beyond your education. I have no problem in loaning them money.
Perhaps we should try your way and just hope 3 million people don't
lose their jobs, just hope foreign companies don't eat our market
share, just hope that the people who lose their jobs can somehow keep
paying their mortgages and not cause another round of banks going
bankrupt. Maybe creating the worst depression in history will be a
good thing. Are you an American or from one of those foreign companies
hoping to get the jobs and our money into your foreign bank accounts?
Wait, I forgot we should just hope something better will
magically sprout from the ground after we kill off one of the few
things we still make in this country.


<JS>
These companies are paying their CEOs a salary of $30 Million per year, give
or take a couple of million, to drive them into the ground.

A prudent company would take the HUGE profits they were making in the good
years and squirl it away for the lean years, or to make a better product
that could stave off the lean years altogether. These companies did not do
that. Not even close.

This is akin to you getting 10 or 15 hours per week overtime for years, then
finding the overtime is terminated so you need to borrow money from your
parents because all you are getting now is straight time.

Chapter 7 is REORGANIZATION. It pays creditors while allowing the company
the ability to reorganize itself so that it comes out the other side
stronger than it is today. That's what Chapter 7 bankruptcy does. They could
go Chapter 11 too (or, instead actually) but this shutters the plant and
sells off the assets to cover the debt, effectively killing the company.

</JS>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:34:01 -0800, Jeff Strickland wrote:

>
> A prudent company would take the HUGE profits they were making in the good
> years and squirl it away for the lean years, or to make a better product
> that could stave off the lean years altogether. These companies did not do
> that. Not even close.

Yup.

I've been saying for years (since 1982!) Make something people WANT to
drive!

Now, I'm a little quirky in my car preferences; I don't particularly like
big cars (although my LHS was cool, but it handled like my Celica!) and I
like the feel of a smaller car. I also like economy, but the number one
thing is, unless I am doing it because I *WANT* to, I don't want to HAVE
to spend a weekend under the hood! I also like parts that last almost as
long as the whole car. What a difference 2 letters can make!

Mike Hunter wrote:

> Toyota sales was off more than Fords

Causing Toyota's credit rating to be downgraded to AA, still the
highest in the auto industry. Toyota is definitely on the brink of
liquidation. Thanks for warning us, Mike.