"R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
newsccBh.2676$Jl.1463@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more
>time
> in electric only mode.
>
> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time in
> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>
> -thanks
>
> -ralph
>

The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery between
45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a modification
that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten the battery pack's
life.

Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to spend
more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to spend more time
running to re-charge the battery.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

>
> "Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:45d4c58c@news.meer.net...
>> In alt.autos.toyota Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up
>> > before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the
>> > difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids
>> > like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure
>> > electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the
>> > Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this
>> > correct?
>>
>> Yes, except Honda update as another poster noted.
>>
>> An after-market switch is available to make the current Prius operate
>> entirely on electric motors, like a Euro model. After Andrew's test
>> I thought it would not be worthwhile, but I'm having second thoughts.
>> Steven Scharf (SMS) posted this URL describing how:
>>
>> http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf
>>
>
>

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:14:20 GMT, "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:

>"mark_digital©" wrote ...
>> "Ray O" wrote ...
>>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more
>>>>time
>>>> in electric only mode.
>>>>
>>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time
>>>> in
>>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>>>>
>>>> -thanks
>>>>
>>>> -ralph
>>>>
>>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
>>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a
>>> modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten the
>>> battery pack's life.
>>>
>>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to
>>> spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to
>>> spend more time running to re-charge the battery.
>>> Ray O
>>
>> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
>> underutilized to begin with.
>It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based upon
>my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below half
>of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does
>by default.
>
>Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the possibility
>of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by over and under
>charging.
>
>What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust it to
>be a bit more on the electric side.)
>Tomes
>

You Prius drivers are almost as nuts as me!

I run a GPS in my Corolla Wagon. The GPS is connected to my
laptop computer and will take voice commands such as 'Where the hell
am I'....

Now just think how dangerous I'd be in a Prius!!!

--


Scott in Florida

"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
news:gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> "mark_digital©" wrote ...
>> "Ray O" wrote ...
>>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more
>>>>time
>>>> in electric only mode.
>>>>
>>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time
>>>> in
>>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>>>>
>>>> -thanks
>>>>
>>>> -ralph
>>>>
>>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
>>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a
>>> modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten the
>>> battery pack's life.
>>>
>>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to
>>> spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to spend
>>> more time running to re-charge the battery.
>>> Ray O
>>
>> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
>> underutilized to begin with.
> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based upon
> my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below half
> of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does
> by default.
>
> Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the possibility
> of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by over and under
> charging.
>
> What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust it to
> be a bit more on the electric side.)
> Tomes
>
>

In every case I have read about where people have wanted to tweak or adjust
how the hybrid system operates, their desire has been to have the vehicle
run in pure electric mode for a longer period or distance. I believe that
Priuses sold in the UK have an EV button that forces the vehicle to operate
in electric mode as long as possible, and that real world fuel economy
changes very little by using that mode often.

--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"mark_digital©" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote in
news:aO-dnQihFquFQEjYnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@comcast.com:

>
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
> news:gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
>> "mark_digital©" wrote ...
>>> "Ray O" wrote ...
>>>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
>>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend
>>>>>more time
>>>>> in electric only mode.
>>>>>
>>>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more
>>>>> time in
>>>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>>>>>
>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> -ralph
>>>>>
>>>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
>>>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so
>>>> a modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may
>>>> shorten the battery pack's life.
>>>>
>>>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle
>>>> to spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have
>>>> to spend more time running to re-charge the battery.
>>>> Ray O
>>>
>>> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
>>> underutilized to begin with.
>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based
>> upon my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go
>> below half of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric
>> moreso that it does by default.
>>
>> Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the
>> possibility of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by
>> over and under charging.
>>
>> What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust
>> it to be a bit more on the electric side.)
>> Tomes
>>
>>
> You're redesigned Prius actually (according to what I've read and
> heard) does go further and faster in all electric mode under similar
> conditions than my '03 Prius. As far as installing another battery
> pack, if it were my project I would make it so the second battery pack
> was for *overflow* only and not to be charged simultaneously or better
> put, not a priority.

How about charged from 120VAC line?
When you get home or where an outlet is available.
Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
charging,not expensive gasoline.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86...
> "mark_digital©" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote in
> news:aO-dnQihFquFQEjYnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>>
>> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
>> news:gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
>>> "mark_digital©" wrote ...
>>>> "Ray O" wrote ...
>>>>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
>>>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend
>>>>>>more time
>>>>>> in electric only mode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more
>>>>>> time in
>>>>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
>>>>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so
>>>>> a modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may
>>>>> shorten the battery pack's life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle
>>>>> to spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have
>>>>> to spend more time running to re-charge the battery.
>>>>> Ray O
>>>>
>>>> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
>>>> underutilized to begin with.
>>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based
>>> upon my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go
>>> below half of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric
>>> moreso that it does by default.
>>>
>>> Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the
>>> possibility of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by
>>> over and under charging.
>>>
>>> What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust
>>> it to be a bit more on the electric side.)
>>> Tomes
>>>
>>>
>> You're redesigned Prius actually (according to what I've read and
>> heard) does go further and faster in all electric mode under similar
>> conditions than my '03 Prius. As far as installing another battery
>> pack, if it were my project I would make it so the second battery pack
>> was for *overflow* only and not to be charged simultaneously or better
>> put, not a priority.
>
> How about charged from 120VAC line?
> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
> charging,not expensive gasoline.
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

All this stuff is technically feasible. The question is whether it is
commercially feasible, that is, whether consumers are willing to pay $2000
to $4000 for the additional battery packs, chargers, etc. and give up trunk
space. My guess is that people would probably give up trunk space but would
be a little more reluctant to part with the additional money since the
payback period may be longer than they intend to keep the vehicle.

The break-even point in terms of fuel costs is somewhere between 3 and 7
years, depending on the cost of fuel, driving conditions, etc. Adding an
additional $2k to $4k may push the break-even point out further than most
people would keep the car. While there are plenty of people who keep their
car for 10 or 20 years, even if all of them purchased the additional battery
capacity, the sales numbers may still not justify an automaker to put it
into production.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:

> How about charged from 120VAC line?
> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
> charging,not expensive gasoline.

The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.

Consider these stages when charging:

* burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);

* convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
journey across country, losses not negligible);

* convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
losses overall).

Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
to know more.

Just a thought, right?
--
Andrew Stephenson

ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson) wrote in
news:1171652924snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk:

> In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
> jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:
>
>> How about charged from 120VAC line?
>> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
>> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
>> charging,not expensive gasoline.
>
> The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
> of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
> think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
> in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.
>
> Consider these stages when charging:
>
> * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
> to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
> or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);
>
> * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
> journey across country, losses not negligible);
>
> * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
> then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
> losses overall).
>
> Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
> Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
> drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
> have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
> petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
> I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
> to know more.
>
> Just a thought, right?

I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source
than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.

Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is charged
from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far greater,I
suspect.

and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from
electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack
has.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

In article <Xns98D9ECFD76CCCjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:

> ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson) wrote in
> news:1171652924snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk:
>
> > In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
> > jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:
> >
> >> How about charged from 120VAC line?
> >> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
> >> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
> >> charging,not expensive gasoline.
> >
> > The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
> > of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
> > think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
> > in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.
> >
> > Consider these stages when charging:
> >
> > * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
> > to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
> > or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);
> >
> > * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
> > journey across country, losses not negligible);
> >
> > * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
> > then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
> > losses overall).
> >
> > Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
> > Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
> > drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
> > have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
> > petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
> > I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
> > to know more.
> >
> > Just a thought, right?
>
> I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source
> than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.
>
> Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is charged
> from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far greater,I
> suspect.
>
> and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from
> electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack
> has.

I considered listing each last tiny cause of inefficiency I could
imagine then decided to group them, eg: "* convert electricity to
form suitable for battery (low volt DC), then convert to chemical
energy, then back to electricity (huge losses overall)". Leaving
it to technically minded readers to fill in details seemed good.

We need more reliable, clear numbers.
--
Andrew Stephenson

"R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
> question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
> OK, enough ranting....
>
> Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
> equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances
> in
> subspace temporal harmonics....
>
> DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>
>
> thank you
>
> -ralph
>
>
I've looked into the EV switch (available aftermarket) so I can move the car
from the curb into the driveway without the usual condensation of acids in
the exhaust. People who have put the switch in say it doesn't affect fuel
economy either way - it's just for suppressing the engine operation when it
isn't wanted.

Mike

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:00:56 GMT, "R PRINCETON"
<rlanni@access4less.net> wrote:

>Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
>question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
>OK, enough ranting....
>
>Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
>equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
>subspace temporal harmonics....
>
>DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>
>
>thank you
>
>-ralph

Ralph,

Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.

Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
fuel tank to haul around.

All of the mechanical inefficiencies are still there to which we add
the electrical inefficiencies (alternator-85% efficient, electric
motor-80% efficient, control circuity-85% to 90% efficient, battery
recharge-60% to 70%)

There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
the same performance as a gasoline-only car.

If you want an electric car, fine---buy one. But just remember, there
is a reason why the Baker Electrics and Stanley Steamers aren't sold
any more.

Jack


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